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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transgender fighter wins debut after choking out opponent in second round

160 replies

OvaHere · 11/09/2021 12:44

www.mirror.co.uk/sport/other-sports/mma/transgender-fighter-wins-mma-debut-24960681

Picture pretty much says it all. Horrifying that this is allowed.

Just last week an inquest concluded into the tragic death of a female MMA fighter whose family felt the fight was mismatched and this was an actual female opponent.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9962521/Female-kickboxer-26-died-blow-head-Fast-Furious-fight.html

Allowing males to compete in the female category makes an already dangerous sport so much more dangerous.

OP posts:
KittenKong · 12/09/2021 10:35

I assume it is young men who have never laid hands (in any way) on a woman...

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 12/09/2021 11:06

@Sophoclesthefox

Flowers to female and arabella.

Of course we won’t see any of the cheerleaders on this thread. They couldn’t even bring themselves to defend Hubbard at the Olympics, never mind this. Because they know it’s wrong. They know.

But they’re in a philosophical bind, because the worldview demands that you never, ever, ever let there be the slightest deviation from the belief that being a woman is a state of mind and not a physical reality, and any and all risk to women from that position is acceptable collateral damage.

Let’s have a think about what we’re likely to see when a male bodied person and a woman are pitted against each other.

Male upper bodies have approximately 75% more muscle mass and 90% more strength than female bodies. A recent study found that male punch power was 162% greater than female (www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200205132404.htm).

Males have more fast twitch muscle fibres than females, and this difference is made more pronounced the more you train, as males tend to develop more fast twitch muscles when strength training, where females develop a mix of fast and slow twitch. Fast twitch fibres give you speed and explosive power, which means you react quicker, and create more power from the greater speed.

Male bones are stronger and longer than female bones, which means a longer reach, a sturdier structure and a bigger and more solid head. A woman on her thirties will already be starting to lose bone mass. This means a greater injury risk to female bodies.

None of these factors are affected by someone’s gender identity. They apply exactly to a transwoman as they do to a man. If you want to show me how that’s not true, you will need to bring evidence, and that evidence will have to disprove millennia of human development, thousands of years of human knowledge, and decades of scientific research, so it’s going to have to be hot fucking stuff.

It is dangerous, delusional, unscientific fantasy to suppose that pitting women against this fighter is fair, safe or desirable.

It has to stop.

Agree, totally agree.

The willful refusal to listen to any robust scientific knowledge is highly disturbing. It reminds me of the suffragettes fight. Men were using pseudo-scientific arguments there about women's mental inferiority. They are now using pseudo-scientific arguments (i.e. focusing only on testosterone levels) to argue that women and transwomen are physically the same. Yet so many people don't want to see that this is just modern female oppression.

One of the sillier responses on that twitter feed was suggesting that you 'change sex' when you make your external and internal body like the opposite sex. But there is no attempt to really look at whether you have changed your body in the factors you list here and any other proven to be the real differences between male and female bodies. If we could properly achieve that, then I'd support transwomen in women's sports. But we can't. Maybe we never will.

ArabellaScott · 12/09/2021 11:13

The thing is that one doesn't even need scientific evidence to know that males are stronger than females.

Look around you! Watch the first minute of this film starring the fighter involved. Note the shape and size of the upper body. Use your brain.

(later some extreme violence in this film, btw, content warning. The first minute is not violent).

alkanet · 12/09/2021 11:16

Sums it up for me.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 12/09/2021 11:27

@KittenKong

Women are just smaller men... But my sister could beat my granddad... Physical strength and the benefits of male puberty just disappear... Women are exactly the same as men... I hope you don’t teach your daughters that they aren’t as strong as men... You go Queen!

Seriously - are people on twitter pig ignorant or just taking the Mickey?

This neatly outlines some of the problems involved both here and so many other areas that touch on this contentious issue.

Some people don't know what they don't know.
Some don't care to know what they don't know.

How is there ever going to be a decent discussion in the public space when the main discussants (with the power of a cyber mob behind them) don't care to do the most cursory research about their own assertions. This is Frankfurt's On Bullshit in action.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Bullshit

I'm bearing in mind the number of people who don't know where their major organs are, don't understand male/female reproductive tracts and orifices etc.

The recent Whole Genomic Screening exercise that involved the public incorporated some superb education sessions with leading experts. The people who participated enjoyed it enormously and were very excited by the science as well as learning more about the ethical issues that are associated with it.

That was a lot of well-crafted, well-facilitated education for which people received an honorarium (I think).

I don't know what we need for a reasonable level of knowledge in the area of sex based differences to convince people that there are some and women aren't being lazy when they can't lift some weights or create as much power for some manoeuvres.

Our present state of general ignorance is helping no-one.

MondayYogurt · 12/09/2021 11:36

Realistically we will need to see several brain damaged, spine damaged, or dead women before this is questioned. The first casualty will be a "cis women do this to opponents too". The second casualty will be a "stop panicking, transphobes" and "this isn't a pattern". The third casualty will be a "fighting is dangerous duh". The fourth casualty will be a "maybe they should wear helmets or something". The fifth casualty the family will speak up and be branded transphobic. The sixth casualty sponsors might start to worry it's not the image they want to project. The seventh casualty some mainstream think-pieces will mention live action snuff films. And hopefully by the twentieth+ casualty women fighters will be so afraid they'll avoid any trans fighting.
The vast majority of people promoting this have never taken a fist to the jaw of any kind. They've grown up watching Buffy and Black Widow and genuinely think women can just train and beat men.
They have no answers for why transmen don't win male sports.

ArabellaScott · 12/09/2021 11:38

I suppose there's always been a large amount of ignorance on fairly basic stuff - you can't get pregnant standing up/naming body parts/superstition type of thing.

But some of the nonsense I see around at the moment seems to have successfully jumped the shark wrt even the most banal, obvious truths. Truths so blindingly obvious that nobody has ever even thought to do 'research' on them.

'Only females get pregnant' for example, is something that is so fundamental and unarguable that I doubt anyone has ever wasted time on doing a study to ascertain what proportion of pregnant people were female.

Just waiting for someone to post the study to disprove that, now.

I mean, please don't.

But I wouldn't be altogether surprised.

Hmm
Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 12/09/2021 12:01

I suppose there's always been a large amount of ignorance on fairly basic stuff - you can't get pregnant standing up/naming body parts/superstition type of thing.

Yes and the same people who are so ignorant about biology expect women to know they are 'cervix-havers' and therefore should know to get a smear!

Appalonia · 12/09/2021 12:02

There a a tweet saying she was literally asking for it...

Transgender fighter wins debut after choking out opponent in second round
EmbarrassingAdmissions · 12/09/2021 12:11

@Appalonia

There a a tweet saying she was literally asking for it...
Also seen:

If you believe trans women can only compete in men's sports, then that means trans men have to compete in women's sports. Because "biological sex"

Keep the argument consistent is all I'm saying.

There is consistency. Transmen do not get to compete in the women's category because they take testosterone as part of the transition and that is classed as a banned substance. If they start early enough (as is the goal for some activists), they do not experience a female puberty.

And this is one of many reasons that it's so difficult to have a useful discussion in public (as above).

Transgender fighter wins debut after choking out opponent in second round
ArabellaScott · 12/09/2021 12:14

@Appalonia

There a a tweet saying she was literally asking for it...
Shock Holy fuck.
RedDogsBeg · 12/09/2021 12:18

[quote ArabellaScott]Indeed there are stupid people on Twitter right now arguing that males are not stronger than females.

Where do you even start with arguments like this?

twitter.com/GynBag/status/1436753766468837380[/quote]
Remember that disgusting trope from years ago that rape victims should just keep their legs closed to prevent it happening? These arguments are barely a whisker away from that.

Datun · 12/09/2021 12:18

@MondayYogurt

Realistically we will need to see several brain damaged, spine damaged, or dead women before this is questioned. The first casualty will be a "cis women do this to opponents too". The second casualty will be a "stop panicking, transphobes" and "this isn't a pattern". The third casualty will be a "fighting is dangerous duh". The fourth casualty will be a "maybe they should wear helmets or something". The fifth casualty the family will speak up and be branded transphobic. The sixth casualty sponsors might start to worry it's not the image they want to project. The seventh casualty some mainstream think-pieces will mention live action snuff films. And hopefully by the twentieth+ casualty women fighters will be so afraid they'll avoid any trans fighting. The vast majority of people promoting this have never taken a fist to the jaw of any kind. They've grown up watching Buffy and Black Widow and genuinely think women can just train and beat men. They have no answers for why transmen don't win male sports.
God, that is only too plausible.

I genuinely think some people believe that if women train hard, like in the movies, they can take on men. But most people don't. Most of these people (men) just love seeing women get the crap kicked out of them whilst calling it progressive and claiming that the person doing the kicking is the real victim.

andyoldlabour · 12/09/2021 12:29

Any person who agrees with this situation, or worse, congratulates the "winner" is a woman hating person with mental issues.

Thelnebriati · 12/09/2021 13:35

Realistically we will need to see several brain damaged, spine damaged, or dead women before this is questioned.

I disagree; injured and dead women have done nothing to help keep women's DV shelters open, funded or single sex.
I think we need to stop thinking that there is any situation so bad it can make people suddenly care about women and children.

MondayYogurt · 12/09/2021 13:41

@Thelnebriati if you read to the end of the post you'll see my suggestion that the body count will eventually dissuade eager female volunteers. I don't believe society will suddenly care about women being hurt.

manatsu · 12/09/2021 14:23

[quote ArabellaScott]Indeed there are stupid people on Twitter right now arguing that males are not stronger than females.

Where do you even start with arguments like this?

twitter.com/GynBag/status/1436753766468837380[/quote]
I'm mad you shared this as it meant I had to read this piece of nonsense: www.twitter.com/Zombiecat_Luna/status/1437014869937688579

There are no words.

ArabellaScott · 12/09/2021 15:29

'a long rounded way'?

Confused
FlyingOink · 12/09/2021 16:33

The vast majority of people promoting this have never taken a fist to the jaw of any kind. They've grown up watching Buffy and Black Widow and genuinely think women can just train and beat men.

This is definitely a big part of it. Some people genuinely believe this, and think that saying women are weaker physically is anti-equality.

TheWeeDonkey · 12/09/2021 20:03

I have no words, this is evil. Just pure evil and sickening.

The person who did it, the people who allowed and profited from it and the people who're justifying and excusing it. All just pure evil

mumsiedarlingrevolta · 12/09/2021 20:13

I find it so shocking and am in disbelief that we have gotten here-

all very surreal Hunger Games stuff.

that in a "civilised" society that this is happening and has not peaked every single person seeing it.

I hadn't thought about parallel for rough sense defence.
Not only is this normalising it- it is making it entertainment!!!!!

Packingsoapandwater · 12/09/2021 20:23

They have just handed hate-riddled males an excuse to beat the living shit out of females and not get sent down for it.

I'm starting to believe that there's a reason for all this shit. It feels like there's a push emanating from some powerful people to stoke as many fires as possible to try to provoke all out social and cultural conflict.

No one in their right fucking mind would support this fight, unless your motive was to crash MMA as a sport or terrify half the population.

Because that is what this fight is: a form of terrorism against women. They are saying "look what we can do to you and the law allows it."

It's Purge level horror, this.

TheWeeDonkey · 12/09/2021 20:33

Because that is what this fight is: a form of terrorism against women. They are saying "look what we can do to you and the law allows it."

It's Purge level horror, this.

Thats exactly what this is. I've never had any experience of DV and the pictures have really disturbed me. I can't imagine what it feels like for survivors to see this being celebrated.

Flowers to the survivors on this thread.

I keep thinking I hope this is the thing that makes people wake up, but there is no depth people are not willing to sink to to endorse these abuses.

Justme10 · 12/09/2021 21:51

'Her victory prompted backlash from a number of people who said it was unfair for a trans woman to compete against a cis-gendered athlete in the sport.'

The Daily Mail don't even call Celine a woman just a cis-gendered athlete!

It's a disgrace these fights are allowed go ahead, the pictures are sickening.

OperationDessertStorm · 12/09/2021 22:22

Appalling. This is why Language is so important. Transwoman wins over cis gendered athlete utterly mis represents what this is.