Christine Mboma wins Diamond League 200m

[NotBadConsidering]

Christine Mboma is male. Shericka Jackson 2nd. Dina Asher-Smith came 3rd.

www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/58442621

Obviously no mention of the controversy around a male sex person running in women’s athletics by the brief summary by the BBC .

Previous thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4312328-Female-Namibian-runners-change-events-due-to-too-high-testosterone

At each series the prize money is as follows:

www.diamondleague.com/rules/

1st 10,000 USD
2nd 6000
3rd 3500

Allowing this male to continue to run is costing women thousands of dollars each time .

So no alternative suggestions for the term to analyse the advantages these athletes have? That of being male with a DSD.

What is worse, to refer to them as male, refer to them as people with a DSD and the specific DSD, or to continue to obfuscate the reason they are subject to restrictions and let the world think they are females, which is false?

Quote from BBC News article:

When it was suggested World Athletics could broaden the range of events covered by it's controversial testosterone limits, Niyonsaba joked she was ready to switch again.

"I can go to pole vault! Or high jump!" she added.

The stray apostrophe belongs to the BBC not me btw.

The rogue apostrophe is enraging enough in itself .

Ekofisk

Why do you keep on about Mboma being slower than the World's best men, when Mboma is competing in the women's category?
At the age of 18, Mboma has broken the U20 women's World records at 200m and 400m six times in the space of four months, despite having absolutely awful technique. The previous World record holders were Allyson Felix and Grit Breuer (Germany suspended for doping in 1992).
I am also aware that the current U20 Women's javelin WR is 63.86m and in 1974, aged 16, I threw 61m at my school sports day using a heavier javelin, 700g compared to the women's 600g.
Semenya, Wambui, Nyonsaba, Masilinga and Mboma all have the same 46 XY DSD, which means that they have been through a male puberty, conferring on them a physical advantage not experienced by any women. They will have higher bone density, more efficient pelvic angle, larger heart and lungs, lower levels of body fat, more oxygen carrying red blood cells leading to a better aerobic system.
These are biological facts, which beyond any shadow of a doubt explain why these athletes need another category to compete in.

Why do you keep on about Mboma being slower than the World's best men, when Mboma is competing in the women's category?

For exactly the same reason as people on these threads constantly point out that mediocre males are and will continue to dominate women’s sports unless this is stopped.

I was disagreeing with the Let’s Run thread (and a PP on this thread) who reckons that Mboma is fast for an 18 year old male.

Mboma is a mediocre male. 499 other males of a similar age have run 200m faster than them this season.

Mboma only gets airtime because they are a male competing in the female sex classification.

Semenya also would have been no where near competitive if they switched to the mens races.

Yes. When compared to males, they are not champions. That is the entire point isn’t it. Males. Andy and Eko are both arguing parts of the same point.

@Helleofabore

‘Been through male puberty’ would cover it

I can see where you are coming from. But it still comes across as ambiguous to those who have not done the background reading. This has the effect of 'softening' the term, but also adding confusion.

It does not clarify the situation for the majority of readers and would still be effectively calling that person 'male'.

I have found that it gets to the nub of the issue very quickly. Male puberty is the reason that males outperform females in these events and reason enough for them not to be competing in women’s events.

It is not outright saying the athlete is male and so allows people to consider the facts without immediately shutting down the argument because of gender beliefs.

@Helleofabore

Yes. When compared to males, they are not champions. That is the entire point isn’t it. Males. Andy and Eko are both arguing parts of the same point.

Absolutely I’m agreeing with andy

I think it’s useful to view Mboma’s performance in the context of where they would stand in the correct (ie male) sex classification.

Ekofisk

I am saying that Mboma and the other athletes with the same DSD should not be competing in the women's category, because they have been through a male puberty.

andy I’m not disagreeing.

The fact that Mboma’s times puts them as fastest in the world in the women’s U20 class but 500th in the men’s U20 class is proof of how unfair this is to women (adult human females).

I have no more sympathy for males with reproductive disorders than for any other medical condition. They are not special, and males with reproductive disorders are not women and do not deserve any sympathy for ruining women’s careers. It is reprehensible.

Ekofisk

Sorry about that, it is just this subject which really gets me riled. From an early age I was sports mad, played a lot of different sports to a reasonable standard, played mixed doubles tennis and badminton, so why didn't I play men's and lady's doubles? Well there is a straightforward answer based in common sense, which the leaders of many sporting organisations seem unable to fathom. The truth is, that their policies (inclusivity mainly) have been unduly influenced by lobby groups, sometimes lobby groups which have recently been questioned and discredited.
The following lists the people involved in British Cycling's "Diversity and Inclusion Advisory Group"

www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20210205-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-names-members-of-new-Diversity-and-Inclusion-Advisory-Group-0

I could go through most major sports organisations and find something very similar. Under the banner of diversity and inclusion, there is one group they do not mind harming, that group is 51% of the population.
They are called women.

Such a coincidence that it's always Black women infringing these rules. Perhaps they should identify as white so they could be left alone to continue winning races.

*When it was suggested World Athletics could broaden the range of events covered by it's controversial testosterone limits, Niyonsaba joked she was ready to switch again.

"I can go to pole vault! Or high jump!" she added.*

It's not really a joke though is it. With a small amount of training to get the most rudimentary jump technique, Niyonsaba could probably kick the shit out of all the females in the women's competition in both events. And the long jump. And the triple jump. And the steeplechase. And all the hurdles distances. Any event which doesn't have another male competing in it basically.

so why didn't I play men's and lady's doubles?

I think a lot of men will be increasingly asking themselves this.

Why shouldn't they? If all these other men are doing it, are they chumps to be missing out on the relatively easy competition?

There are still some events without male competitors - some individuals could clean up.

And even in the events with male presence - 1 outside-top-500 male to beat is far easier than a field full of elite males.

@VladmirsPoutine

Such a coincidence that it's always Black women infringing these rules. Perhaps they should identify as white so they could be left alone to continue winning races.

So, your problem is that not enough white men are also unfairly competing against women in sports.

You know skin pigment is only skin deep. Whereas a different skeletal configuration, organ set up, and a body which has benefitted from the androgenising effects of male levels of testosterone gives a naturally superior set of advantages to males over females.

The analogy of men competing against women (of whatever hue) is that of a motorcycle in a bicycle race. Not a green bicycle competing against a red bicycle.

Your attempt at a sly little smear is the equivalent of casting aside the very real disadvantage people on bicycles objecting to a harley davidson winning the tour de France. And saying to all the cyclists that they are all really bigoted because the harley davidson motorbike is green. Not the real reason which would be because it is a bl**dy motorbike with an engine cheating people on bicycles..

Such a coincidence that it's always Black women infringing these rules. Perhaps they should identify as white so they could be left alone to continue winning races.

Are you suggesting that we wouldn't be complaining that 2 black women had been deprived of prize money, if the athlete beating them had been a white male with a DSD?

Mboma and semenya were raised and socialised female due to their dsd

I don't know about Mboma but Semenya definitely wasn't. Thé only place they consider themselves to be female is on the track.

Yep, this place is renowned for being soft on white males...

@334bu

*Such a coincidence that it's always Black women infringing these rules. Perhaps they should identify as white so they could be left alone to continue winning races.*

Are you suggesting that we wouldn't be complaining that 2 black women had been deprived of prize money, if the athlete beating them had been a white male with a DSD?

Agreed. A strong objection to Hubbard's participation in the Olympics was the chain reaction displacement of women from (predominantly) low or middle income countries by a privileged white athlete.

I would also note that it is black athletes (Jackson, Asher-Smith) who have been similarly displaced in sponsorship/prize money terms by the placings in this race.

@VladmirsPoutine

Such a coincidence that it's always Black women infringing these rules. Perhaps they should identify as white so they could be left alone to continue winning races.

Allegedly, they are specifically scouting for males with DSDs from Africa to compete as women. Then they have the “I didn’t know due to the poor healthcare in my country” excuse. Also, their blackness serves as extra protection, as their supporters can cry racism and accuse detractors of saying that black women look masculine.

I have strong suspicions of athletes (past and present) of various ethnicities being XY DSDs though.

What about the Black women who lose spots to the cheating men?!?! Does no one care about them? Why aren't there scouts looking for Black women in Namibia who could certainly benefit from prize monies?

@VladmirsPoutine

Such a coincidence that it's always Black women infringing these rules. Perhaps they should identify as white so they could be left alone to continue winning races.

I think you should take that up with the relevant national Olympic organisations as to how and why that happens. However, to be very clear we are discussing males not black females. Females do not have that particular DSD that these athletes have. At all.

Hence the need for clear language.