Good news on the WI Spa incident

[PostingForTheFirstTime]

I just saw this reported on Facebook:

nypost.com/2021/09/02/charges-filed-against-sex-offender-in-wi-spa-casecharges-filed-against-sex-offender-in-notorious-wi-spa-incident/amp/?__twitter_impression=true&fbclid=IwAR1e_ws81-vaALSlUfdhuYlufJNoLzR31q-WII_WCUISsfR5Rnvx-21RtFc

@ZuttZeVootEeeVro

I don't entirely agree. As I said, I don't think they should be there. But if they are surrounded with people telling them they should be, as is currently often the case, then they may simply believe them. Thoughtless and self centred perhaps, or simply believing what they have been told about being welcome, but not necessarily guilty of more

Is it possible for male trans person to hear that they are welcome to be naked around children and women, yet be oblivious to the fact that it is controversial and that it's breaking cultural norms?

If they are getting the message that it's ok, they are going out of their way to listen to one view and ignoring everyone else.

Well we know that's true, how many mentions of the echo chamber do you hear on here? And it is basic algorithms on any media these days that if you watch something saying x you will then get suggestions of more of the same, so pretty soon it seems like it's the only thought out there.

How do we create safe spaces for trans women when sex offenders subvert the protection afforded to them.
Genuine question. Because I don't have an answer.
We all need safe spaces.
As a cis woman I need a safe space. My trans sisters also need a safe space. But this self ID solution isn't working because of a tiny minority of criminals.
I hate it.

I haven't seen the message explicitly you are welcome to be naked with us come on in.

Just TWAW and should choose facilities etc.

And no male person is unaware that women /women and girls having a male in what were single sex spaces is going to make some or all of them uncomfortable scared etc.

Is there a complaints body for The Guardian we can write to, to make them print a retraction?

www.ipso.co.uk

This is where you can make a complaint.

@NeverRTFT

How do we create safe spaces for trans women when sex offenders subvert the protection afforded to them. Genuine question. Because I don't have an answer. We all need safe spaces. As a cis woman I need a safe space. My trans sisters also need a safe space. But this self ID solution isn't working because of a tiny minority of criminals. I hate it.

You look at this and your first thought is safe spaces for trans women.

On the topic of the thread.

This spa has 3 options.

1. Male. A male person with a male body will certainly not be at risk in the male spa for being trans because no one will know.

1. The mixed spa is available and has some coverage required. I can't see why there would be a risk there.

1. Women's spa males should not be in there because of the risk to women that is instantly obvious to the vast vast vast majority of people.

Where does your concern for trans women at this spa come from?

@NeverRTFT

How do we create safe spaces for trans women when sex offenders subvert the protection afforded to them. Genuine question. Because I don't have an answer. We all need safe spaces. As a cis woman I need a safe space. My trans sisters also need a safe space. But this self ID solution isn't working because of a tiny minority of criminals. I hate it.

Third spaces. Better, improved, nicer mixed sex spaces. Lots of them. No expense spared. Stick a free champagne bar in.

But we keep single sex spaces for women- Women who have religious or cultural beliefs that’s males and females don’t mix. Women who have been victims of sexual abuse. Prepubescent girls. Vulnerable blind, pregnant, disabled and elderly women. A little space for AHFs.

And we don’t put vulnerable impressionable women into men’s spaces

Have you addressed this question to any people who are vocal about trans rights including self ID?

Because this question doesn't tend to get a satisfactory answer. Maybe you have had more luck?

As a cis woman I need a safe space. My trans sisters also need a safe space. But this self ID solution isn't working because of a tiny minority of criminals.

The problem isn't self-id. It's inappropriate for any male, even ones diagnosed as trans or with a grc, to be naked around women and girls.

Third spaces sounds like a great solution but it's not at all realistic.

Disability rights groups fought for years to get to where they have with accessible toilets ramps etc and provision can still be inadequate.

Where does the space come from? Esp in cities / old buildings etc?

Where does the money come from?

If this was popular with those fighting for various things for trans people. There is a lot of support money political buy in etc. From big corporates govt depts etc. They would be able to get stuff done much more easily than other groups.

But I've never seen this anywhere as a thing to do or even think about.

From the start it's been open the existing things up on self ID.

Third spaces are not wanted.

twitter.com/corinnehills/status/1433543986090708994?s=21

The utter contempt in calling woman TAF

What does TAF mean?

Now being reported in the LA Times

www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-09-02/indecent-exposure-charges-filed-trans-woman-spa

Male sexual predators are not a tiny minority of criminals. This one rejected the third space in the spa. Third spaces are a good idea but they don't solve this particular problem.

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel
Thick As Fuck

The point is the validation and invading of women's space. I've never heard a single TRA advocate for third spaces. A very few trans people do.

Thanks Illaria.
How inappropriate for an academic. You would think a kind friend would stop her from tweeting for her own good.

@NeverRTFT

How do we create safe spaces for trans women when sex offenders subvert the protection afforded to them. Genuine question. Because I don't have an answer. We all need safe spaces. As a cis woman I need a safe space. My trans sisters also need a safe space. But this self ID solution isn't working because of a tiny minority of criminals. I hate it.

We stop society implicitly tolerating male sexual and non-sexual violence, aggression and social dominance. Then no one needs a safe space away from the men (if you are a genderist) or the males (if you are a realist).

Because the unspoken problem that all of this "safe space" is orbiting around is the dreadful, inexcusable, yet somehow never really challenged behaviour of males.

It seems like society has decided it's just too hard to actually expect male people to behave like civilised humans, and the "solution" is to move everybody else out of their way.

(No not all males behave like vile pigs, but it seems the ones who don't do so because they, as civilised humans, choose not rather than because there is any real, deep expectation by society that they should. Which is to their credit but society's shame)

In the meantime, sure, third spaces, whatever trans women need to feel safe that doesn't take away from the rights of female people to also feel safe and to be visible in their own right.

But the real problem here is not female people, or women, or trans people, it's male behaviour.

It's so annoying that the media are calling this man a woman and using female pronouns. They're going along with this sex offender's narrative, a narrative he is using to lobby politicians into accepting he is persecuted instead of predatory, and one where he is considering legal action because he is the victim. False pronouns are not benign.

Part of me wishes that it was a hoax, that all of the woman were just overreacting to a harmless spa visitor. At least then no women or girls would be in danger. What type of world do we live in where women are called 'transphobic hoaxers' for objecting to a man's erect penis in a female only space 😪

@ZuttZeVootEeeVro

I don't entirely agree. As I said, I don't think they should be there. But if they are surrounded with people telling them they should be, as is currently often the case, then they may simply believe them. Thoughtless and self centred perhaps, or simply believing what they have been told about being welcome, but not necessarily guilty of more

Is it possible for male trans person to hear that they are welcome to be naked around children and women, yet be oblivious to the fact that it is controversial and that it's breaking cultural norms?

If they are getting the message that it's ok, they are going out of their way to listen to one view and ignoring everyone else.

I would expect they know it's controversial, but they think they are in the right.

Given the number of women who think this sort of think is ok, I'm do think there are some men who really think so as well. There are some very predatory people in the TRA movement, but also some who seem vulnerable and easily led.

@NeverRTFT

How do we create safe spaces for trans women when sex offenders subvert the protection afforded to them. Genuine question. Because I don't have an answer. We all need safe spaces. As a cis woman I need a safe space. My trans sisters also need a safe space. But this self ID solution isn't working because of a tiny minority of criminals. I hate it.

I think the only way to do this in a spa type setting would be to have some spas that cater to that specific set of clients. Which would likely only be possible in larger centers - smaller cities and towns wouldn't have the population.

In which case you might have some spas that would set aside a certain time, weekly or monthly, for trans clients.

But I don't think it's going to be workable to require every spa to have facilities for trans clients as well as men and women. Just like many only cater to women as men aren't as keen on spas.

The la times piece has

'Message boards where anti-trans activists gather, including Mumsnet, saw thousands of comments.'

🙄

Is the guy that was charged the same guy who did the art theft?

www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-jeffrey-gundlach-art-heist-sentencing-20140121-story.html

Well that's my complaint submitted about the guardian.

However I suspect they'll probably just double down or ignore rather than make a public apology statement.