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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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13
OperationDessertStorm · 03/09/2021 00:19

@EsmaCannonball

Male sexual predators are not a tiny minority of criminals. This one rejected the third space in the spa. Third spaces are a good idea but they don't solve this particular problem.
I think third spaces are the only option here. It’s not what TRAs want and many of us don’t want to use them but it’s a compromise that many uninvested people would get behind and companies would back if they were asked too. In this instance if the spa was able to back third spaces the staff could have intervened and directed the male to the existing space and everyone could have got on with their day.

Their claim that there’s no money for this is ridiculous - this spa already has a third space for example. If this is where the investment is needed in other businesses then we invest.

NiceGerbil · 03/09/2021 00:30

'Given the number of women who think this sort of think is ok, I'm do think there are some men who really think so as well. There are some very predatory people in the TRA movement, but also some who seem vulnerable and easily led.'

What number of women who think this sort of thing is ok?

Where has the idea come from that loads of women are cool with this?

They aren't. Obviously.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/09/2021 00:31

Message boards where anti-trans activists gather, including Mumsnet, saw thousands of comments.'

Grin
NiceGerbil · 03/09/2021 00:34

'I think third spaces are the only option here. It’s not what TRAs want and many of us don’t want to use them but it’s a compromise that many uninvested people would get behind and companies would back if they were asked too. In this instance if the spa was able to back third spaces the staff could have intervened and directed the male to the existing space and everyone could have got on with their day.

Their claim that there’s no money for this is ridiculous - this spa already has a third space for example. If this is where the investment is needed in other businesses then we invest.'

The spa HAS a third mixed sex spa.

It is ILLEGAL in California to direct to mixed spa. The law is that service providers must allow access on self ID.

You are saying they should have facilities for men women mixed AND tw TM as well? Non binary? You want them to operate at least 5 areas?

What's wrong with the mixed space?!

NiceGerbil · 03/09/2021 00:34

And who is the we you mean when you say we should invest?

doublemonkey · 03/09/2021 00:39

The WI spa incident was a world wide story. Can we get this thread transfered out of this backabush place and onto one of the main boards?

Aparallaxia · 03/09/2021 00:54

I note that the reporter in the LAT article (the one I wrote to, though I bet that's just coincidence) gets round the awkwardness of ladydick like this:
'The listed violation date is the same day that a viral video emerged alleging a customer had exposed their penis in front of people inside the Wi Spa.'

In the rest of the article, Merager is 'she' and 'her'. But 'her penis' might have been felt to be a step too far, so the reporter shifts to talking about 'the customer' referred to 'in a viral video'.

I hope people will now begin to realize just what self-ID means.

EsmaCannonball · 03/09/2021 01:30

Sally is now claiming that it was a naked LGBTQ sauna. When these people have no other defence they just flat-out lie. All the local people commenting at the time said it was a regular, fairly family-orientated Korean spa. Is there nothing she won't say to defend male predators?

plodalong12 · 03/09/2021 01:41

Gosh, the writer of the Slate article is so annoyed that he has to update the article to reflect the new findings. Now believes it’s a 60/40 chance it wasn’t a hoax.Hmm

mobile.twitter.com/e_urq/status/1433537047931797514

NiceGerbil · 03/09/2021 02:53

Update the article? What to have an update at the top?

Or to rewrite it so if anyone clicks they don't read the original?

He's annoyed??!

NiceGerbil · 03/09/2021 02:56

That Hines person is.. wow.

So first it's a non story
Then schools need to do gender education and that will help.. something to do with WiSpa.. not sure what
Then some people's trauma is not other people's trauma and it's wrong for anyone with trauma to have things that don't remind them of it (I think it says)
Then women do it too
Then I'm a victim of male violence stop being mean

Bizarre.

MiladyBerserko · 03/09/2021 03:33

Tucker Carlson having lots of fun

mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1433602378570289157

OperationDessertStorm · 03/09/2021 05:14

I hate that I have to agree with Tucker Carlson! How did I get to this!

My point about third spaces is more that if we all agreed that the plan was to keep male and female spaces (and keep the legalities of that), then in this case the staff at the spa could have intervened and moved the person. They wouldn’t have had to put anyone in danger by forcing them to use the male space either.

Clymene · 03/09/2021 05:47

There is a mixed section in the WI spa. If people with male genitalia don't want to use the men's section, they are welcome there.

miri1985 · 03/09/2021 05:50

The Guardian have an article up about the sex offender
www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/02/person-charged-with-indecent-exposure-at-la-spa-after-viral-instagram-video

I don't know if I'm reading into it but the reporting in no way to me seems to be contrite, it seems to be more like there was so much misinformation online what on earth else were we supposed to do but report it that way, they also link to their previous reporting (www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/28/anti-trans-video-los-angeles-protest-wi-spa) in the article and at the side and there is no correction in that article to what we now know despite it clearly alleging repeatedly that the whole thing was a conspiracy against trans women.

They try to hit us over the head with one of the complainants being religious. The whole piece to me read like trying to divert attention away from what actually happened by trying to pin motives on the complainants and talk a lot about far right protesters.

"Tamara Lave, a University of Miami law professor and former public defender in California, said that prosecutors in indecent exposure cases have to prove a defendant not only “willfully exposed” themselves in front of others, but that the person did so with the intention of arousing themselves or sexually offending another individual.

“If somebody goes into a spa and sits naked in the tub, and all they are trying to do is relax, the fact that they are naked in public is not enough for them to be guilty of a crime,” she said, adding that she is concerned about the ramifications for trans rights. “The prosecutor has a duty to make clear that this is about one individual’s conduct, not about a class of people’s conduct.”"

What a great legal stategy, spend your time doing that instead of actually winning the case against a sex offender. If Merager isn't trans should the prosecutor spend time making sure the jury knows NAMALT

MondayYogurt · 03/09/2021 06:10

That Guardian article is written by the same two people who wrote the first one.

'In the 24 June video, another patron suggested the individual might be a trans woman, and the woman filming herself responded with transphobic language, denying that trans women exist.'

It's not reporting, it's thinly veiled activism. They're on the side of the accused.

rabbitwoman · 03/09/2021 06:21

@NeverRTFT

How do we create safe spaces for trans women when sex offenders subvert the protection afforded to them. Genuine question. Because I don't have an answer. We all need safe spaces. As a cis woman I need a safe space. My trans sisters also need a safe space. But this self ID solution isn't working because of a tiny minority of criminals. I hate it.
Wish there was a 'like' button because this is EXACTLY it....

..... and how do we create a safe space for everyone? Firstly by acknowledging the problems around gender identity - not ignoring them, not pretending that they don't happen or that the people who point them out are stupid bigots - acknowledge, discuss, put protections in place, move on.

Simple. And we should have been there already years ago as soon as it became apparent that people like Yaniv, Karen White, Katie delakovski, Barbie Kardashian et al would take advantage.

LolaLouLou · 03/09/2021 06:31

The guardian article uses the word "person" throughout and seems to omit that they identify as transgender. Which I believe they did to access the female only area of the spa.

AnyOldPrion · 03/09/2021 06:51

Seems that despite the increasing number of articles, some of those who denied it happened before are still unwilling to admit it occurred and are doubling down instead.

Good news on the WI Spa incident
NecessaryScene · 03/09/2021 06:59

some of those who denied it happened before are still unwilling to admit it occurred and are doubling down instead.

Bizarre.

News release from LAPD says:

On August 30th, the Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office charged Merager with five felony counts of indecent exposure and an arrest warrant has been issued.

twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1433586845179318273

Sophoclesthefox · 03/09/2021 07:02

Well, well, well.

This is interesting.

In the name of “being progressive” a black woman was accused of lying, had her reputation trashed, her right to her religious belief derided as being a cover for her “bigotry”, was accused of inciting violence and of being a far right plant.

It turns out she was telling the truth. Isn’t it interesting how this progressive belief system ends up reproducing sadly enduring and harmful power dynamics, where a white male is assumed to be truthful and innocent and a black woman is assumed to be untruthful and conniving?

The reaction to her proves the lie of the theory that any male behaving inappropriately in female spaces can be reported and dealt with. Clearly, in this current political climate, they cannot be.

So let’s just stick with spaces where people can reasonably expect to only encounter those of their own sex, to remain single sex, and any men who behave inappropriately towards transwomen in male single sex spaces, can be dealt with and removed.

I’m expecting a resounding silence from the complicit news outlets. We pivoted from “this is completely acceptable, because transwomen are women” to “this never happened” when it became apparent that Joe Public hasn’t yet evolved far enough to accept the prospect of young girls being exposed to strangers’ penises, so I’m interested to see if there will be an attempt to pivot back to the first option.

Doyoumind · 03/09/2021 07:22

The Guardian article talks about right wing protestors several times. It pushes the narrative only right wingers could possibly have an issue with males in spaces meant for females and pushes the transphobic narrative again and again.

Then, it suggests Merager's gender identity is unclear - obviously going down the 'not really trans' route.

It omits any mention of an erection, which was detailed in other reports, trying to frame it as not really indecent exposure as that 'person' just happened to be naked and seen rather than purposely exposing themself.

It's really a vile take on the story.

JustcameoutGC · 03/09/2021 07:23

Jesus that Guardian article is so mealy mouthed. Fearsome Black lady reports a penis in a naked women's spa. Guardian (and lots of others) says 'that's OK it's a female penis, shut up you bigot. She is as entitled to be there as you"
Person arrested who police say identifies as a woman, which as far as I know is all you need to do to be one, all of a sudden she/her pronouns disappear, no one is quite sure how the perp identifies.

Looks like we are heading towards the "it wasn't a TW" defence.

When will they realise IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER HOW THEY IDENTIFY. THE PERTINENT FACT IS THAT HE IS A CONVICTED SEX OFFENDER ONLY ABLE TO ACCESS A NAKED FEMALE SPA BECAUSE THE LAW HAS BEEN CHANGED TO ALLOW THIS WITH NO THOUGHT TO SAFE GUARDING YOU FUCKWITS.

ScreamingMeMe · 03/09/2021 07:26

22:53PumpkinSpiceWoman

PostingForTheFirstTime

I just saw this reported on Facebook:

^nypost.com/2021/09/02/charges-filed-against-sex-offender-in-wi-spa-casecharges-filed-against-sex-offender-in-notorious-wi-spa-incident/amp/?__twitter_impression=true&fbclid=IwAR1e_ws81-vaALSlUfdhuYlufJNoLzR31q-WII_WCUISsfR5Rnvx-21RtFc^

Good news on the incident that didn't happen?

Oh PSW, thank you for your service Grin