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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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RoyalCorgi · 06/09/2021 13:28

I see it as recognising Starkey's behaviour as a display of aggression that was intended to intimidate.

Agreed. I saw a powerful older man intimidating a much younger woman. Pretty frightening behaviour.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/09/2021 14:05

However neither come out of that situation looking good. I can't muster much sympathy at her feeling intimidated by Starkey because presumably if David announced he was Davina she'd retrofit his behaviour as not being a display of male aggression and welcome him into a spa with little girls.

Indeed.

LobsterNapkin · 06/09/2021 14:31

@ZuttZeVootEeeVro

When shown evidence that yes, a number of TW have sexually offended against women in single sex spaces: ok, but it's unfair to exclude all male people on the grounds that some of them will be sex offenders.

It's Peter Tatchell's stance, and he seems to be representing TRA a lot in recent tv interviews.

It's safe to say tatchell is unconvinced about the needs of safeguarding.

It's important to understand the particular structure of this argument.

It's because we have two competing ideas in society. In one, you can look at things like offence stats and say, this is a statistical analysis and as such doesn't apply to individuals, but we can act upon it to protect groups of people.

According to the other perspective, even if there is some sort of statistical indication that a group has something like a higher rate of offences (say, poor people) it's not ok to make any concrete differentiation. In fact, many people consider it suspect to even talk about or notice that the statistical information.

The way we decide which way of thinking to use when is often not all that well thought out by most people. It's often done intuitively. Not necessarily randomly - most people probably have a sense that the reason male sexual offences are more common that female ones is different than the reason poor people might more often commit crimes, and so they shouldn't be managed in the same way. But if you ask people to lay out very clearly and logically their thinking on these things, it's often quite non-specific.

But one powerful way to protect oneself from being seen as a member of a group where it's ok to differentiate is to have some sort of status as a protected class. Because being a member of a protected class isn't just about saying - this group has been discriminated against for no reason. It can also be that it says we can't discriminate even when there might be a reason. For example, as an employer, you can't discriminate against a woman because she might take maternity leave, or because she might be more likely to take time off to deal with childcare - even if those things are absolutely true.

This creates a huge incentive for people with some sort of commonality to treat them as identity characteristics, because they then have a kind of position from which to negotiate being treated as a group that needs to be protected in a way that is different than another group. An example of this might be the split between those who wanted to see the gay rights movement lead to a place where the distinction around sexuality became invisible, and ceased to be a significant unifying identity focus, and those who want to maintain it as a distinction with political significance and lobbying power. The ideal of the former would tend to remove much political focus around sexuality - gay people would then simply belong to various political positions, ideological positions, like other people, but they wouldn't wield any really separate political clout.

But in a political landscape that often elevates identity groupings over individual perspectives, even including the individual perspectives of those within the groupings, everyone needs to find an identity group if they want to be able to effectively engage in politics.

An it's going to be the most direct way to avoid questions about behaviours that some might feel are anti-social.

NewMutiny · 06/09/2021 20:20

In that clip Penney accuses someone of all sorts apparently for no particular reason other than advertising her own ideological purity; can't take any criticism back; gets all flustered about whether stuff really did or didn't happen but then says it did but for good sound ideologically pure reasons; tries to play the ball not the man a number of times and then resorts to saying it's all horribly violent. It's like every Twitter trans spat ever, made into a live event.

And the voice sounds affected and put on but if it's not I apologise to her for the literal violence of finding her voice really annoying.

Franca123 · 06/09/2021 20:36

She's like that dick head everyone hates at work because they piss all over everything and everyone stopping anything ever being achieved. Just making everything miserable all the time because of their own peculiar mental problems.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 06/09/2021 21:57

The way we decide which way of thinking to use when is often not all that well thought out by most people. It's often done intuitively.

Safeguarding isn't decided intuitively by individuals as they see fit, we have rules that we all have to follow. Peter Tachell, it seems, wants to allow men - any man - to identify out of their sex and thereby remove any of the established safeguarding policies that depending on knowing someones sex.

It doesn't really matter if someone has good reasons to hide their sex, by doing so they are removing sex-based safeguarding.

NewMutiny · 06/09/2021 23:00

@Franca123

She's like that dick head everyone hates at work because they piss all over everything and everyone stopping anything ever being achieved. Just making everything miserable all the time because of their own peculiar mental problems.
Yes. All this pompous, 'I would like to respond'. You're not in frigging Parliament.

Exactly like the office twat. 'Fuck's sake Brian, there's no need for the Spanish Inquisition - no-one has been taking your milk. Just use mine...'

NiceGerbil · 06/09/2021 23:16

She should have kept her mouth shut and moved it on.

Starkey is an aresehole.

I mean people spend their time (money?) to listen to this sort of thing?!

Gab2 · 06/09/2021 23:57

What alarms me is that even though the victims at wi spa have been vindicated by this man being charged pink news are still calling it bullshit. They haven't really said much but its clear now that they know they were wrong and they know this injustice isnt right but they don't care and will go any distance to defend their precious ideology no matter how many rapists and paedophiles use self id. This ideology is their cash cow and admitting they were wrong will set in motion an unravelling of this ideology. This scares the crap out of more. Theres nothing more damaging and dangerous than indifference. Theres so much money behind the trans brand.

NiceGerbil · 07/09/2021 00:02

It's just about prioritising men.

For those paid up to all this. Fully paid up. There's nothing that could happen that would change their minds.

Sadly that's what's going on.

NiceGerbil · 07/09/2021 00:12

Just had a look at PN piece.

They have for who knows what reason misnamed the person charged. Using only their middle and surname. Their first name is Darren. Why not give their actual name?

Most peculiar.

Gab2 · 07/09/2021 00:29

@NiceGerbil

Just had a look at PN piece.

They have for who knows what reason misnamed the person charged. Using only their middle and surname. Their first name is Darren. Why not give their actual name?

Most peculiar.

Thats them clinging to whatever control that have over this narrative. To give the mans name who was charged would be to admit that the person charged is a man with a long list of sex offences dating back to 2002 before he came up with the trans excuse.
NiceGerbil · 07/09/2021 00:32

They did list their previous and pending convictions/ cases.

I was surprised at that.

NiceGerbil · 07/09/2021 00:35

I don't think it's up to anyone outside to assume gender here.

It's an apparently prolific sex offender with a penis.

I imagine that those who are vocal about gender> sex would hate for anyone to assume this person is a man.

They are what they say and had every right to be there. That's important.

Gab2 · 07/09/2021 00:54

@NiceGerbil

I don't think it's up to anyone outside to assume gender here.

It's an apparently prolific sex offender with a penis.

I imagine that those who are vocal about gender> sex would hate for anyone to assume this person is a man.

They are what they say and had every right to be there. That's important.

With this specific kind of sex offence the sex of the person is central to the offence. One of the charges was indecent exposure to a minor female. All statements given said he was erect. There is no way for a woman to commit this kind of sexual offence. If you argue that some women have penis's then legally there was no crime committed. That makes child safe guarding and womens sex based rights null and void.

What I got from pink news article is that they are arguing that this man is has been a victim all this time by transphobic women and transphobia in the LA police. That he's just using the womens facilities and getting unfairly reported and charged each time. Their second article, they clearly state on their fb post that the charges are bullshit.

NiceGerbil · 07/09/2021 01:19

Well sure but I think it's very important too remember that 'oh they weren't really trans' is an easy out.

People who believe in self ID can't have it both ways.

Gab2 · 07/09/2021 01:30

@NiceGerbil

Well sure but I think it's very important too remember that 'oh they weren't really trans' is an easy out.

People who believe in self ID can't have it both ways.

Either way, even if they have their cake and eat it they still have to admit that self ID is ludicrous and dangerous when men, sex offenders can use it to offend. The worst, i would think, is when they use the argument "well women can rape too" and "just because "shes" a sex offender doesnt mean she is a transwoman". I've heard a lot more of the latter.
NiceGerbil · 07/09/2021 01:31

What about women and girls get sexually attacked all the time so what's the problem.

That's a popular and particularly lovely one.

Artichokeleaves · 07/09/2021 10:36

Either way, even if they have their cake and eat it they still have to admit that self ID is ludicrous and dangerous when men, sex offenders can use it to offend.

This is because they feel that sex offenders should be able to self ID as they want to, express themselves, and that female people experiencing the offences and the lifetime harm it often causes is not something anyone should be bothered by.

This is a newspaper that does not believe in the right of females to refuse male people sexual access to their bodies or to see sex as something involving their choice, consent and mutual pleasure. Their actions repeatedly demonstrate that they don't see female people as fully human or as having justifiable purpose or lives of their own outside providing for male need. Especially they appear to disdain the ones who have not attempted to identify out of this position of subordination by taking on another gender.

Once you've reached the 'stop gatekeeping your vagina and learn to cope with sex with male people' from the group who purports to stand for the rights of homosexual people, there's not a lot of point in expecting any sense from them on anything else.

RoyalCorgi · 08/09/2021 18:27

Brendan O'Neill of Spiked has a good piece on the utter pathetic-ness of the liberal media on this:

www.spiked-online.com/2021/09/07/the-wi-spa-scandal-is-worse-than-we-thought/

LobsterNapkin · 08/09/2021 19:12

@ZuttZeVootEeeVro

The way we decide which way of thinking to use when is often not all that well thought out by most people. It's often done intuitively.

Safeguarding isn't decided intuitively by individuals as they see fit, we have rules that we all have to follow. Peter Tachell, it seems, wants to allow men - any man - to identify out of their sex and thereby remove any of the established safeguarding policies that depending on knowing someones sex.

It doesn't really matter if someone has good reasons to hide their sex, by doing so they are removing sex-based safeguarding.

Rules can and do change as people change their way of thinking.

We sometimes allow for the kinds of safeguarding protections you mention, and other times we don't - in fact we would say it would be seriously immoral to discriminate on some basis, despite statistical reasons that might make it seem sensible.

How we differentiate those things is important.

The point being that under a democratic system where the shots are increasingly called by special interest groups, and being a member of a special interest group gives political influence, and where being a member of a protected group insulates you from calls for justified discrimination such as in safeguarding - that system creates a huge incentive for people to find all manner of identity commonalities, especially ones that could be perceived to be disadvantaged in some way.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/09/2021 19:18

That's an excellent piece by BON, Corgi

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman · 08/09/2021 20:32

Reading that Spiked article made me feel really... Dunno, glum.

Once upon a time I was a Leftie, and I drifted more to the centre for all sorts of reasons, not all of them well-examined. And here I am, finding myself agreeing whole-heartedly with an article that pillories the Left.

Because the Left has abandoned women. Woke points matter more. Honesty is unimportant. The Left and Centre are off their tits on KoolAid.

I am, currently, politically homeless. Thanks, guys. Thanks a bloody bunch. I have no idea who I'll vote for next time. But not you, not a snowball's chance in Hell.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 09/09/2021 12:16

There's a difference between economic and social left.

There's also the issue, that as some of us get older and more experienced, we become 'conservative' around wanting to preserve the systems that we know protect us. It can be a battle between tearing down systems that no longer reflect society and maintaining the ones we need.

I've noticed that lots who are in favour of removing woman as a class are in positions where they don't need lots of those protections - they aren't women themselves, or they don't have children, are not economically vulnerable. Or they don't have the experience to understand why the systems are in place.

merrymouse · 09/09/2021 12:52

I don’t think gender ideology is left wing in any way.

The only cross over is that liberal concepts of tolerance (people should not suffer discrimination because they are gender non conforming) and left wing concepts of equality have been exploited to support what is basically a right wing libertarian/men’s rights argument - people should be able to do whatever they want to do.

It’s the same line of thinking that spurred the settlers across the prairies and allows people to carry guns in supermarkets.