The look at me of pronouns

[Ritascornershop]

Recently I’ve had two interactions that have startled me. One was with legal aid (I’m in Canada) where the young lawyer rang me and said “Hello this is Thomas from xx, my practice is x and my pronouns are he/him.” Just in case I thought someone with a male voice and whose name was Thomas might like me, when speaking to him, to refer to him in the third person as she/her. I laughed and pointed out that as I was speaking directly to him, his pronouns wouldn’t be relevant.

The other interaction was after I’d written my member of parliament’s office asking for an answer on something I couldn’t get a Ministry to answer me on. 3 months later I finally got a reply suggesting I contact that Ministry 🙄 and signing off “Benjamin Lastname, he/him, Useless Twat, Your MP’s office”.

I replied telling him it was useless information that should not have taken 3 months to cough up, and I didn’t care what his pronouns were and I wasn’t going to proffer mine as doing so for women tended to increase sexism in professional interactions.

Is this as rampant in the UK? It just seems so unprofessional and so “look at me!” I’ve no interest in how they hope people refer to them when they’re not there, I just want answers to my questions that they are qualified to provide.

@PastMyBestBeforeDate

Our diversity guidance suggests all meetings should start with introductions including pronouns all round. Obviously nobody's read the guidance because it's yet to happen in a meeting I've been at. Even one led by HR.

Wonder what would happen if someone said "my pronouns are irrelevant and self evident"

It's creeping in at my workplace too. I've noticed more and more it happening. Mainly women who identify as ..... women.

I will be saying no if I'm requested to add this to my email signature. It already annoyed me enough that they're trying to force us to add photos of ourselves to our profiles.

@WorriedWishingWell

It's creeping in at my work. Someone asked if they could direct their team members to do it. Although the answer was no, there was a lot of "people need educating and then they'll realise why they need to do it."

@WorriedWishingWell

If they keep pushing, show them that they are going against what Stonewall wrote for International Pronoun Day, which was -

Including pronouns in e-mail signatures should be encouraged, but not be made compulsory as not everyone may feel comfortable sharing their pronouns. There are many different reasons for this and it may be true for both cis and trans staff. (This should also be remembered when verbally introducing pronouns at the start of meetings.)

www.stonewall.org.uk/about-us/news/international-pronouns-day

@PissedOffNeighbour22

It's creeping in at my workplace too. I've noticed more and more it happening. Mainly women who identify as ..... women.

I will be saying no if I'm requested to add this to my email signature. It already annoyed me enough that they're trying to force us to add photos of ourselves to our profiles.

@PissedOffNeighbour22 Ugh yes! From a business point of view, people do feel comfortable when they can put a face to a name, but it also increases the chance of various types of discrimination.

Inside the company, most people just want to see photos because it just gives them more info to judge you on I feel.

@Fitt

I wouldn’t pressure someone into stating their pronouns, although if they said they thought it was pointless/stupid/promoting an ideology I would challenge them on that and seek to have a discussion about it.

This is hilarious. I think most people would run a mile from a "discussion" with you.

@Fitt I would say that's the point isn't it? To scare women into submission and 'educate' them on their wrong think.

Again, if people want to frame their identity in a certain way, then ok (and I sympathise with people who do feel discomfort with sex-based pronouns)...... BUT, other people shouldn't have to also adopt the same practices, in the same as you shouldn't have to adopt religious practices if you don't want to.

I'm not scared by the discussion, it's more the same reaction when you realise you have opened the door and it is the Jehovah's witnesses out there.

My first thought is to shut the door and laugh.

I once had a ‘lovely chat’ with a Jehovah’s Witness... I ended up inviting him I’m for a tea and to continue our discussion... but he ran away. And I was being nice (and asking all those questions I’d been saving up for religious types).

I'm happy to have a religious chat, I just don't want the attempt at conversion by a believer. Same with pronoun fans. I might be unable to avoid laughing.

I've heard of a lot of gender non-conforming women getting asked their pronouns. I'd make a formal HR complaint if I was asked mine.

I don't see how people who are aware that asking an Asian colleague if they love curry is completely inappropriate, somehow fail to understand that buzz cut does not equal neopronouns or indeed the age-old "wanting to be a man".

You just shouldn't judge someone on their appearance and make stupid assumptions, it's terrible for business and a potential legal minefield.
I also agree that including pronouns signals an acceptance of gender theory.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Didn’t I offer to have a discussion previously? As far as I recall you weren’t keen.

No, I think you must be thinking of someone else, I'm perfectly capable of taking on your weak arguments and willing to do so.

Looking back it appears either it was you, or someone with the same username

It is pathetic

I’m not sure where people got the impression that I go around my workplace haranguing people about their views. I made clear that I wouldn’t ask someone why they don’t state their pronouns in their email signature, or tell them that they should. But if someone chooses to tell me their reasons for not doing it, and I think those reasons are misconceived, what’s wrong with me responding with my own views? If a colleague told me they thought same sex marriage shouldn’t be allowed, or that they believed women are innately submissive, I would equally tell them that I disagree and why.

@Helen8220

I’m not sure where people got the impression that I go around my workplace haranguing people about their views. I made clear that I wouldn’t ask someone why they don’t state their pronouns in their email signature, or tell them that they should. But if someone chooses to tell me their reasons for not doing it, and I think those reasons are misconceived, what’s wrong with me responding with my own views? If a colleague told me they thought same sex marriage shouldn’t be allowed, or that they believed women are innately submissive, I would equally tell them that I disagree and why.

Would you 'challenge' a homosexual as to why they are homosexual?

@EarthSight
This is exactly the problem that women face. Would you be willing to have that little discussion with an employee in the presence of an employment lawyer?

I don’t understand your question - do you mean would I have the conversation with a person that I employ in the presence of an employment lawyer? I don’t employ anyone so it’s not really relevant.

@Aparallaxia
That’s brilliant 😂

@Feelingmardy

Shall we kick off a discussion Helen? Genuinely I would be interested to know how, when we live in a world where the atrocities to females (sex-based, nothing to do with identity) such as those currently occurring in Aghanistan, are so commonplace why you think we do not need sex-based protections. Do you not believe in any affirmative action for oppressed groups? How do you try and make sure that your position of privilege is not blinding you to the realities of other people's situations? Do you believe you can talk for all oppressed groups who have experiences which your privilege has protected you from?

You’re basically asking me to write an essay, which I’m afraid I don’t have time to do, sorry. I came here to put the other side of the pronoun argument, as no one else seemed to be, but your questions are straying very far from that.

@Datun

Would you 'challenge' a homosexual as to why they are homosexual?

This question doesn’t make any sense to me. Do you mean ask someone about what they think caused them to be gay, or ask them why they think it’s ok for them to be gay? Why would I do either of those things? Particularly as I am in a same sex relationship?

[quote Helen8220]@Datun

Would you 'challenge' a homosexual as to why they are homosexual?

This question doesn’t make any sense to me. Do you mean ask someone about what they think caused them to be gay, or ask them why they think it’s ok for them to be gay? Why would I do either of those things? Particularly as I am in a same sex relationship?[/quote]
Because you seem to be picking and choosing between protected characteristics as to which ones are perfectly acceptable to challenge.

Homosexuality as a sexual orientation, is a protected characteristic.

As are certain beliefs. And the belief that sex is immutable and that it matters is one of them, as laid out in the Maya Forstater judgment. And the lack of belief in transgenderism is the same.

Which is why a previous poster mentioned an employment lawyer. If employers started 'challenging' people, as you put it, on the basis of their protected characteristics, they would be on a very sticky wicket indeed.

Behaviour that, as someone who is not an employer, you seem to consider perfectly acceptable, but only on the basis of certain protected characteristics, and not others.

Looking back it appears either it was you, or someone with the same username

We can have it on the thread, but you didn't seem keen to do that, did you?

@EishetChayil

It's pathetic.

I immediately discount the opinion of anyone with pronouns in their bio.

Me too. If I'm recruiting, it will instantly guarantee you're not getting the job.

@Datun

Just because a belief is protected under the Equality Act does not mean that no one has the right to express disagreement with it. It doesn’t even mean that the person holding the belief has a right to express it in all circumstances, regardless of the impact on others.

The belief that same sex couples should not be allowed to marry (and many even more objectionable beliefs) are protected under the equality act, but that doesn’t mean I can’t challenge a colleague who chooses to express those views in the workplace

How very disingenuous to suggest that I was reticent to have a debate, when you will only have it in private, which I don't see a need for.

@Ereshkigalangcleg
We’ve had endless ‘discussions’ on a number of threads

Just because a belief is protected under the Equality Act does not mean that no one has the right to express disagreement with it. It doesn’t even mean that the person holding the belief has a right to express it in all circumstances, regardless of the impact on others.

What it means, Helen, is that it might be illegal harassment to force people to justify why they hold gender critical beliefs, depending on the circumstances. I think this is what you aren't grasping.

I came here to put the other side of the pronoun argument, as no one else seemed to be, but your questions are straying very far from that.

As previously discussed, sexism is directly relevant to declaring of pronouns. You are therefore now being challenged on this.