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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The look at me of pronouns

461 replies

Ritascornershop · 01/09/2021 18:14

Recently I’ve had two interactions that have startled me. One was with legal aid (I’m in Canada) where the young lawyer rang me and said “Hello this is Thomas from xx, my practice is x and my pronouns are he/him.” Just in case I thought someone with a male voice and whose name was Thomas might like me, when speaking to him, to refer to him in the third person as she/her. I laughed and pointed out that as I was speaking directly to him, his pronouns wouldn’t be relevant.

The other interaction was after I’d written my member of parliament’s office asking for an answer on something I couldn’t get a Ministry to answer me on. 3 months later I finally got a reply suggesting I contact that Ministry 🙄 and signing off “Benjamin Lastname, he/him, Useless Twat, Your MP’s office”.

I replied telling him it was useless information that should not have taken 3 months to cough up, and I didn’t care what his pronouns were and I wasn’t going to proffer mine as doing so for women tended to increase sexism in professional interactions.

Is this as rampant in the UK? It just seems so unprofessional and so “look at me!” I’ve no interest in how they hope people refer to them when they’re not there, I just want answers to my questions that they are qualified to provide.

OP posts:
EarthSight · 05/09/2021 13:33

we’re all used to gendered pronouns

Wrong Helen. Until about 5 minutes ago we were all using sex-based pronouns.

Waitwhat23 · 05/09/2021 13:40

It's just made me think of something that happened in a previous job of mine. I ran a community hobby group (think a book club or knitting or something similar) and one of the partipant's had recently become a Christian. In the course of a conversation, she asked if I was Christian myself and I said no, I wasn't. She asked why and I said something along the lines of that it just wasn't for me, I had been to church services in the past, read articles, respected people's beliefs but just didn't believe myself.

She wouldn't let it go. Every group session after that she would bring it up. It made me more and more uncomfortable but because I was employed there I couldn't just say 'please can you drop it now, this is starting to feel like harassment'.

It simply wasn't enough that I didn't believe myself. It wasn't enough that I didn't make comments against her religion. In her eyes, I had to be made to believe.

And this is what it feels like. You can't just respect someone else's pronouns. You have to be made to participate, to believe.

EarthSight · 05/09/2021 13:42

@Waitwhat23

'Challenge' is too close to the TRA cry of 'educate yourself' for me to feel comfortable with tbh. Myself and other posters have found that it's just not enough to say 'no, thank you' regarding pronouns. It is inevitably challenged and often gets a very negative response. I have no issue with respecting preferred pronouns (with some obvious exceptions) but there is a culture of mandating that people state their own pronouns - I am uncomfortable with this.

I also think it's really quite unrealistic to think that an entire language's rules will change in order to have non sexed pronouns.

@waitwhat23.

Myself and other posters have found that it's just not enough to say 'no, thank you' regarding pronouns. It is inevitably challenged and often gets a very negative response

If you know someone who thinking they're going to be asked/challenged soon because of this, message me please.

midgemagneto · 05/09/2021 13:51

So to be considered say none binary you have to present in a gender neutral way

Which is not possible for a big boobed lady without radical surgery? And actually fit most women they would also need "hardening " hormones that would also harm their bodies.

Why can't you just accept people as they are without having labels , without them needing to classify themselves? Apart from biology why do we need the terms man and woman?

Can you give a single example unrelated to biology where your notion of sex/gender matters ?

Why should you treat me differently because you think I am a woman?

Waitwhat23 · 05/09/2021 13:59

Oh, and I've also just remembered a small amount of posters on the FWR who have said that they've had transgender relatives fall out with them, despite them being respectful of name changes and preferred pronouns, because the relative doesn't think that the poster truly believes that they are now the opposite sex.

I find this forced belief quite unsettling, given that it's not based on anything concrete, just feelings and beliefs.

Feelingmardy · 05/09/2021 14:27

*I disagree that stating preferred pronouns reflects or encourages gender stereotypes.

I wouldn’t pressure someone into stating their pronouns, although if they said they thought it was pointless/stupid/promoting an ideology I would challenge them on that and seek to have a discussion about it.*

You may not agree that stating pronouns reinforces gender stereotypes but clearly many people do. This is often the reason why people don't state their pronouns. You can see from this thread that many people also consider that it is promoting an ideology. From participating on this thread, therefore, you already have your answer to the 'challenge' you propose. Why ask a question you already know the answer to? Can you see how that would be experienced as hugely arrogant by many people?

MattDillonsEyebrows · 05/09/2021 15:21

I told a young family member the other day that my pronouns are none of my business, as they would only be used when I'm being spoken about and it's none of my business what someone says about me if I'm not there. I guess I was bought up being told you should never eavesdrop and it's kind of stuck.

I've not yet been asked in a professional setting yet but I hope I have the courage to say something similar or if I was feeling extra brave 'my pronouns are Her Royal Highness'.

midgemagneto · 05/09/2021 15:27

Isn't it known that when females are reminded of their sex, their performance deteriorate?

Stating pronouns == forcing women to either declare their sex , and do lead to self imposed gender inequality, or declare another sex, forcing them to accept giving up all the rights that a woman has around personal dignity ?

Deliriumoftheendless · 05/09/2021 22:00

I wonder if the singer of Imagination, Lee John goes by they/them as “we are many”.

Deliriumoftheendless · 05/09/2021 22:00

Leee - autocorrect.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/09/2021 22:17

I wouldn’t pressure someone into stating their pronouns, although if they said they thought it was pointless/stupid/promoting an ideology I would challenge them on that and seek to have a discussion about it.

I would very much relish such a discussion with someone who has previously acknowledged that they are speaking from a position of privilege and doesn't really understand the need for sex based rights.

But yes, as pp said, it's not your place to harangue people for not signing up to your ideological beliefs.

Helen8220 · 06/09/2021 00:38

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I would very much relish such a discussion with someone who has previously acknowledged that they are speaking from a position of privilege and doesn't really understand the need for sex based rights.

Didn’t I offer to have a discussion previously? As far as I recall you weren’t keen.

Aparallaxia · 06/09/2021 07:36

Haven't had as much fun since Wimbledon reading this thread!

I suspect that being made to state pronouns would count as coerced speech in the US, so no federally-funded institution could enforce it. Some colleagues of mine state their pronouns, but so far no insistence. If I am ever asked I will refuse and try not to go off into a full-throttle GC take-down of this pointless wokery. Gender stereotypes were being slowly, ever so slowly dismantled, and now they've been remade into magical identities that everyone has at least one of and some lucky people have dozens that change every day! You know, like personalities in The Three Faces of Eve, only more of them.

Instead of accepting that sex-based differences exist and doing our best to make them irrelevant to all the other stuff that goes on in society, those differences have simply been pronounced irrelevant and even non-existent while genders and simplistic language revisionism take centre-stage.

Re astrological signs. Attached may amuse (not mine, alas).

Real astrological signs
Unknown author

Aquarius (1/20 - 2/18) You have an inventive mind and are inclined to be progressive. You lie a great deal. On the other hand, you are inclined to be careless and impractical, causing you to make the same mistakes over and over again. People think you are stupid.

Pisces (2/19 - 3/20) You have a vivid imagination and often think you are being followed by the CIA or FBI. You have minor influence over your associates, and people resent you for flaunting your power. You lack confidence and are generally a coward. Pisces people do terrible things to small animals.

Aries (3/21 - 4/19) You are the pioneer type and hold most people in contempt. You are quick tempered, impatient, and scornful of advice. You are not very nice.

Taurus (4/20 - 5/20) You are practical and persistent. You have a dogged determination and work like hell. Most people think you are stubborn and bullheaded. You are a Communist.

Gemini (5/21 - 6/20) You are a quick and intelligent thinker. Most people like you, as you are bisexual. However, you are inclined to expect too much for too little. In other words, you are cheap. Geminis are known for committing incest.

Cancer (6/21 - 7/22) You are sympathetic and understanding to other people's problems. They think you are a sucker. You are always putting things off; that's why you'll never make anything of yourself. Most welfare recipients are Cancer people.

Leo (7/23 - 8/22) You consider yourself a born leader. Others think you are just pushy. Most Leos are bullies. You are vain and dislike honest criticism. Your arrogance is disgusting. Leo people are thieves.

Virgo (8/23 - 9/22) You are the logical type and hate disorder. This nit-picking is sickening to your friends. You are cold and unemotional and sometimes fall asleep while making love. Virgos make good bus drivers.

Libra (9/23 - 10/22) You are the artistic type and have a difficult time with reality. If you are a man, you are more than likely gay. Chances for employment and monetary gain are excellent. Most Libra women are good prostitutes. All Libras die of venereal disease.

Scorpio (10/23 - 11/21) You are shrewd in business and cannot be trusted. You will achieve the pinnacle of success because of your total lack of ethics. Most Scorpios are murdered.

Sagittarius (11/22 - 12/21) You are optimistic and enthusiastic. You have a reckless tendency to rely on luck, since you lack talent. The majority of Sagittarians are drunks or dopers. People laugh at you a great deal.

Capricorn (12/22 - 1/19) You are conservative and afraid of taking risks. You don't do much of anything; you are lazy. There has never been a Capricorn of any importance. Capricorns should avoid standing still for too long, as they take root and become trees.

Feelingmardy · 06/09/2021 07:53

*I would very much relish such a discussion with someone who has previously acknowledged that they are speaking from a position of privilege and doesn't really understand the need for sex based rights.

Didn’t I offer to have a discussion previously? As far as I recall you weren’t keen*

Shall we kick off a discussion Helen? Genuinely I would be interested to know how, when we live in a world where the atrocities to females (sex-based, nothing to do with identity) such as those currently occurring in Aghanistan, are so commonplace why you think we do not need sex-based protections. Do you not believe in any affirmative action for oppressed groups? How do you try and make sure that your position of privilege is not blinding you to the realities of other people's situations? Do you believe you can talk for all oppressed groups who have experiences which your privilege has protected you from?

Datun · 06/09/2021 08:05

I wouldn’t pressure someone into stating their pronouns, although if they said they thought it was pointless/stupid/promoting an ideology I would challenge them on that and seek to have a discussion about it.

As EarthSight asked you Helen Would you be willing to have that little discussion with an employee in the presence of an employment lawyer?

Janaih · 06/09/2021 08:08

A while ago me and dh were loading up a joe wicks YouTube workout when an advert with Lil Nas X popped up banging on about pronouns. I'll never forget dhs hilariously baffled face Grin "what the hell is he talking about?"
"He's talking bullshit is what".
"Oh right"

I think that's how the majority of people in the real world think.

KittenKong · 06/09/2021 08:09

I dunno... I heard on the radio yesterday about a female Afghani police woman being shot and murdered by the Taliban (after tying her up and beating her) - she was 7 month pregnant.

And people wang on about “oh put your pronouns on your bio just in case someone, somewhere might feel ‘safe’”.

Meanwhile in the real world...

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/09/2021 08:19

Didn’t I offer to have a discussion previously? As far as I recall you weren’t keen.

No, I think you must be thinking of someone else, I'm perfectly capable of taking on your weak arguments and willing to do so.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/09/2021 08:21

A while ago me and dh were loading up a joe wicks YouTube workout when an advert with Lil Nas X popped up banging on about pronouns.

And despite his submission to this ideology he still gets called a transphobe because he says he only likes dick.

Janaih · 06/09/2021 09:30

Does he really! You couldn't make this shit up.

Fitt · 06/09/2021 10:08

I wouldn’t pressure someone into stating their pronouns, although if they said they thought it was pointless/stupid/promoting an ideology I would challenge them on that and seek to have a discussion about it.

This is hilarious. I think most people would run a mile from a "discussion" with you.

KittenKong · 06/09/2021 11:59

So I’ve just filled out a job form where I have declined to tell them my gender identity (also race i identity with or add a photo). Any interview should be interesting...

viques · 06/09/2021 13:37

@Kanaloa

To me the weirdest ones (which I’ve seen in uni email signatures) is she/them or he/them. What does that mean? Do you want to be she/he or them? Or she sometimes and they sometimes. You might as well say Jane, quavers/wotsits for the amount of sensible information I get from that.
I like quavers/whotsits

I might adopt that and change from

Dash of milk/ no sugar

KittenKong · 06/09/2021 13:47

So they use all that... how are we supposed to know when which is relevant?

WorriedWishingWell · 06/09/2021 14:24

It's creeping in at my work. Someone asked if they could direct their team members to do it. Although the answer was no, there was a lot of "people need educating and then they'll realise why they need to do it."