Do we have it anywhere on record that Stonewall does/does not support people to express their sexuality as exclusively homosexual?

[JustcameoutGC]

The expectation that lesbians accept partners with penises was one of the things that really made me start questioning gender identity politics more closely.

Exclusively homosexual lesbian spaces have disappeared as viewed to be transphobic. Just look on any lesbian dating apps and many of the users are male and be-penised. Some may be fine with this, but all of my lesbian friends are not, and they feel very disenfranchised, but equally they feel unable to speak out. Just look at what happened in Manchester.

I just can't wrap my head around how the prevoiusly stalwart and highly effective champion of gay rights has now essentially outlawed exclusive homosexuality.

Have they made any statements that make this stance clear? Have they actively said they do not support exclusively homosexual spaces?

@BilindaB

'It's not 'my personal belief' that transwomen aren't women'

Yes it is. It's a minority belief. The world is changing whether you like it or not. Seriously, what do you think will be completely normal in 20-30 years? Not the world you want.

I think in 20-30 years time we'll be analysing the collective madness that allowed men into women's prisons, refuges & healthcare settings, as well as the increase in harassment and assault that arose from the unisexification of previously single sex spaces. I also think we'll be asking ourselves what the fuck we let happen to a generation of kids as the law suits continue to roll in.

@BilindaB

'It's not 'my personal belief' that transwomen aren't women'

Yes it is. It's a minority belief. The world is changing whether you like it or not. Seriously, what do you think will be completely normal in 20-30 years? Not the world you want.

Leaving aside the "minority belief" lie because there's already a thread which dealt comprehensively with that one....(spoiler - no it isn't)

In 20-30 years there will be body of evidence (possibly anecdotal given the current bastardisation of record keeping) that shows whether making trans women interchangeable with female people disadvantages female people.

So either

1. the whole ridiculous mess will have gone away and we will be back to "sex exists and sometimes need to be mitigated, the only genuine difference between men and women is their bodies, everything else is just social, and gender is a harmful social construct that doesn't help anyone and needs to be challenged not appeased"

2. we will have decided gender really does exist but so does sex and will have sensible solutions that allow for single sex definitions, rights and provisions when sex matters but honour gender preferences the rest of the time

3. social and cultural power will have imposed genderism but female people will have woken up to their disadvantages as we always do and a new form of feminism will be emerging

4. it will have been shown that trans women are materially indistinguishable from female people so the social group of female will have become obsolete

Honestly, given that there's already clear examples where trans women and females have statistically significant differences I'm not betting on 4.

@BilindaB

'It's not 'my personal belief' that transwomen aren't women'

Yes it is. It's a minority belief. The world is changing whether you like it or not. Seriously, what do you think will be completely normal in 20-30 years? Not the world you want.

Are we back to being told this false fact again?

Please post evidence to support your assertion that is not a misinterpreted answer to that yougov survey that is immediately negated by the question where the support for males who identify as women but still have a penis accessing female single sex spaces declines significantly.

No. The minority is those who believe that males can change sex. Some people will allow that term ‘woman’ to be assumed socially to be nice but not when sex matters.

Some people will allow that term ‘woman’ to be assumed socially to be nice but not when sex matters

The reason why it will all die a natural death is men. Sadly, women’s rights and women’s spaces and lesbians’ ability to say no to penises won’t ultimately cut it, but men already aren’t accepting and that won’t change.

Aggressive men, who have transitioned and identify as women are driving this, hence an attempt to change the goalposts on the non socially constructed aspects of women, specifically biological functions and sexual attraction. Hence, we have dissociation of the “woman and girls” from biological functions such as menstruation and pregnancy and breastfeeding and coercion of lesbians to accept “ladycock”

However, men are the reason why TWAW and TMAM will be be mainstream. Their specific health needs are still clearly identified, they aren’t “prostate havers” or “people with testes”. Men who are attracted to women and not to men won’t accept “ladycock” and won’t be coerced, bullied or shamed into it.

*wont be mainstream, obvs

To reiterate for the cheap seats - a TW may be in a heterosexual relationship with a lesbian. A TW will never be in a lesbian relationship, because a TW will never be a lesbian, because a lesbian is a woman, and a TW is a male.

There are no male lesbians.

If a transwoman (a man) was in a relationship with a woman then surely that woman is either heterosexual or bisexual?

From CharlieParley's post upthread

In 2018, Stonewall were asked to support the following statement:

“Exclusive same sex attraction is a valid and real sexuality, there is absolutely nothing objectionable about being exclusively same sex attracted, and those who are should be able to live their sexuality free from any form of hate, discrimination, coercion or harassment, and are fully supported by our organisation as part of the LGBT community".

Stonewall's response: "We cannot help you with that."

From
Female Only Provision:
A Women and Girls in Scotland Report
Page 55f.
wgscotland.org.uk/reports/

So, Stonewall - Stonewall - can't support same sex attraction.

And some people are OK with that?

As I said, it depends why she's in the relationship. There are a number of reasons why a lesbian would be in a het relationship. To pass as straight, to try and suppress/cure her sexuality, because of external or internal coercive pressure. If the woman is oriented towards women, then the only two options there are, if she is in a relationship with a male, is happy bisexual or coerced/self-deceiving lesbian.

The material point is that it's not a lesbian relationship, and the lesbian being in the relationship doesn't make it so, because it's a relationship with a male, who will either be bisexual or heterosexual.

If the lesbian was in a relationship with a bisexual woman, it wouldn't change the bisexual into a lesbian, but the relationship would be lesbian, because it is between two women.

@nauticant

If it's only a tiny fringe minority saying this, and the vast majority in the trans community (I'm including trans activists here) view it in horror, how come there isn't a great outcry from the mainstream trans community criticising this tiny fringe who are doing so much damage?

...... haven't read the whole thread yet but I am just going to add that I work with children.

I have had a seventeen year old gay boy tell me that it would be trans phobic for him not to date trans men. I told him you can date who you want, it has to be consenting, and that he may be happy to date trans men but if there are gay men who don't want to date trans men then that's fine, and not transphobic.

He strongly disagreed.

I have also been lectured by a gay friend of a friend, who thought he would engage me in an email exchange off social media to try to prove me wrong, that excluding a whole group of people from your dating pool was transphobic, bigoted, and yes, he called it out when he saw it.

I believe his exact words were ' there is NO excuse for not dating trans people'.

.... And I have - had - a gay friend for many years, over 20 years. I have seen him physically gag at mention of vaginas, periods and cunnilingus - actually gag!! Well, he is currently on social media proclaiming he doesn't fancy people because of what is in their pants and he would happily date a trans man.

We laugh because a. we know it's a lie and b. he will never have to stand by his inclusive, progressive opinion because he is married. To a man.

It is really telling that Bilinda and Suggestions have not answered my very clear questions.

They have just about acknowledged that it is valid for women to define themselves as exclusively same SEX as opposed to same GENDER attracted, although not entirely clear if they could do this without being labelled transphobes.

However, when asked if dedicated spaces for exclusively same sex attracted people, on line and virtual, are legitimate they don't provide and answer. (The Giggle app story shows just how difficult it is to do ANYTHING exclusively for women)

When asked if Stonewall should include exclusively same sex attracted people in their mandate, no answer.

I can only assume the reason for this is the huge cognitive dissonance this triggers. If, as SW advocates for sex does not matter only gender does, then people who have exclusively same sex relationships become delegitimised, spaces dedicated to those people verboten, the love that dare not speak its name back with a vengeance.

This is what SW have done, and they have dodged the very obvious and troubling questions that this raises by using the #nodebate. It is fucking scandalous.

'However, when asked if dedicated spaces for exclusively same sex attracted people, on line and virtual, are legitimate they don't provide and answer. (The Giggle app story shows just how difficult it is to do ANYTHING exclusively for women)

When asked if Stonewall should include exclusively same sex attracted people in their mandate, no answer.'

I answered both those questions.

Stonewall’s comments highlighted above suggest that attraction is personal and should never be coerced. This is the key point for me.

They then suggest that people should ‘educate’ themselves and would accept more people. I don’t agree with this, as think sex-based attraction is fairly primal, but it, again, is not coercion.

As for single-sex spaces, that all gets quite fraught. If you can form a club for women only, what about men-only clubs? Yes, there is the power dynamic argument, but i can also see a counter argument.

It is hard to say that a private members’ club is compelled by law to be sex-blind, but a dating app isn’t. I tend to agree with the poster above who said that, as long as the profiles are clear and honest, scroll on by.

I think some of the things Stonewall do and campaign for are fairly insidious and horrific; they should steer well clear of children!

However, in this particular instance, not really seeing it.

As for single-sex spaces, that all gets quite fraught. If you can form a club for women only, what about men-only clubs? Yes, there is the power dynamic argument, but i can also see a counter argument.

Of course men should have single sex spaces! And men only clubs - a great example is men's mental health support. It has been proven that men benefit from single sex group therapy sessions, so there are men only AA meetings, for example.

Another is sports. Mixed sex sports is just as unfair on men as women - I kickbox. When I train or spa with men they have to hold back otherwise they would hurt me. Training with other men allow them to reach their full potential.

Gay men are entitled to explore their sexuality in spaces without women - recent stories of trans men being excluded from a gay sex party and a gay sauna spring to mind.

You talk as though men aren't allowed to form men only spaces - they are. On the whole, they aren't under threat from trans men.

@rabbitwoman,

Garrick Club…those are the single sex spaces women are keen to make illegal. What you are saying is that women should choose the single sex spaces and challenge those they dislike. (And I do recognise power dynamic argument-but it is not clear cut).

Sport is very differently, and obviously should be single sex, for the reasons you suggest.

I am just saying that it is a complex issue.

Sorry Bilinda I missed that. You did ask what would stop the creation of spaces for same sex attracted people. Does the Giggle app story show you just how challenging this now is?

I am baffled why you have no opinion on whether or not the most powerful lobbying group for gay rights should include people who are same sex attracted.

It's not as simple as that @TheReluctantPhoenix. Women who make it clear they same sex attracted in their profiles are kicked off all mainstream dating sites for being transphobic. See the article I posted earlier with Lisa Masoud.

All of this is creating a hostile environment for people who are exclusively same sex attracted. Are there any spaces left, online or physical, for people who are exclusively same sex attracted?

As for single-sex spaces, that all gets quite fraught. If you can form a club for women only, what about men-only clubs? Yes, there is the power dynamic argument, but i can also see a counter argument.

No counter argument for lobbying for removal of a safeguard which will force female prisoners to share cells and showers etc with intact males, vulnerable female patients to have to sleep beside people they know are male and domestic violence victims to share refuges with people who terrify them.

@BilindaB

'It's not 'my personal belief' that transwomen aren't women'

Yes it is. It's a minority belief. The world is changing whether you like it or not. Seriously, what do you think will be completely normal in 20-30 years? Not the world you want.

Do tell us how transwomen are women.

Stonewall’s comments highlighted above suggest that attraction is personal and should never be coerced. This is the key point for me.

They then suggest that people should ‘educate’ themselves and would accept more people. I don’t agree with this, as think sex-based attraction is fairly primal, but it, again, is not coercion.

Wpuld you define coercion for me, please? Because having experienced conversion therapy, I can tell you that accepting someone feels one way and 'encouraging' them to educate themselves out of it is coercion.

Something Bilinda hasn't answered:

If some males are women, please define "woman" without a circular argument.

I'm sure that Einstein's view of Gravity is a minority belief: The apple does not fall. The space between the apple and the ground folds up, etc.

Does that mean Einstein is wrong? Should we take a vote?

It certainly isn’t a majority belief that TWAW/TMAMA.

What most people seem to believe is if you’re trans that’s ok. And pronouns get used. And folk say things like “well, he’s a woman now.” BUT that by no means equals people are believing TWAW - any more than when someone says “I’m starving, I could murder a pizza” that they think the pizza is sentient and they are taking its life. Or when people say “my sister would kill me if she heard me say that!” They don’t actually mean they need police protection, just that their sister will get the hump.

I could list more of these but I hope you get the point.

Most people don’t really think trans people are the sex they wish to be (I know someone will say gender but when you’re asking for sex based rights gender is irrelevant.) but they’re kind and decent enough to use the preferred terms.

People are all for trans acceptance- but they forcing of belief on others is not going to make people suddenly believe the miraculous can happen.

Why is that never enough? I have Christian friends who are probably a little bit saddened that I’m an atheist but they don’t threaten to rape or kill me because I don’t believe what they do. They invite me round to their houses and make me a coffee and let our kids play together. They are kind to me despite my refusal to believe that God is real. And I do the same despite thinking their belief system is wrong.

I mean, I could even be friends with someone who wears bootcut jeans because I’m very tolerant of other’s beliefs.

@BilindaB

'It's not 'my personal belief' that transwomen aren't women'

Yes it is. It's a minority belief. The world is changing whether you like it or not. Seriously, what do you think will be completely normal in 20-30 years? Not the world you want.

Ridiculous and patently false statements like these are not created to engage or move the conversation on but to rile people up and derail the conversation.

I see what you're doing @BilindaB and its not nearly as clever as you think it is.

@nauticant

So would you agree that if a lesbian says "I will not date or have sex with any male people, including transwomen" then that's perfectly reasonable? And that anyone attacking her for holding this position is being homophobic?

I would like to ask Bilinda again to please answer THIS question, and suggestionsplease too, if you can.

Leave aside, for the moment, what Stonewall think, how common the examples of pressure are, even the whole TWAW/TWAM issue.

I would like to know what you two think, as individuals, about this specific point, which neither of you has answered.

Do you agree that it is perfectly ok for a lesbian to be clear she is exclusively same sex attracted? That it is not transphobic to be exclusively same sex attracted, and to be open about that fact? That it is in fact homophobic/lesbophobic to deny these particular lesbians the right to freely express their sexual orientation?

And do you think that those lesbians who are exclusively same sex attracted should be entitled to have some form of support and representation, as a group? And should be entitled to have their own dating apps, etc, as a discrete group? And to crowdfund for those if they need to?

This is what I would really like to know. Siimple yes/no direct answers.

If you can’t give simple, direct yes/no answers then I think we will all have a good idea of what you really think about women’s rights to own and live out their own sexual orientation.

I would also like to know why both Bilinda and suggestions believe that they are speaking for the majority of transwomen? They have both made comments to this effect.

Why do they feel that they do and can speak for the majority of transwomen?

And what evidence, apart from anecdotal evidence from their mates, do they even believe that they do in fact speak for the majority of males who identify as women?