Do we have it anywhere on record that Stonewall does/does not support people to express their sexuality as exclusively homosexual?

[JustcameoutGC]

The expectation that lesbians accept partners with penises was one of the things that really made me start questioning gender identity politics more closely.

Exclusively homosexual lesbian spaces have disappeared as viewed to be transphobic. Just look on any lesbian dating apps and many of the users are male and be-penised. Some may be fine with this, but all of my lesbian friends are not, and they feel very disenfranchised, but equally they feel unable to speak out. Just look at what happened in Manchester.

I just can't wrap my head around how the prevoiusly stalwart and highly effective champion of gay rights has now essentially outlawed exclusive homosexuality.

Have they made any statements that make this stance clear? Have they actively said they do not support exclusively homosexual spaces?

@BilindaB

Why have a pointless debate? In short, I've heard enough stories from people who have transitioned that I believe there is something, maybe we can't fully explain it yet, that makes them so uncomfortable as the gender they were assigned and only find relief and happiness when they transition, that it's beyond choice, it's who they are. Of course they suddenly don't develop ovaries, but it's enough for me - as a woman - to allow them into the woman-club.

Sigh. No one’s “gender” is “assigned”. People have a biological sex that is set at the moment of conception and observed at birth (if not before). “Gender” is just a set of stereotypes imposed by society. Please stop with this “assigned” rubbish.

Next year...
You thought dictionaries were your allies, but I could always see the day you would have to denounce them.

I stayed for the promised definition of woman that would prove a TW is a woman, and all I got was this GFery.

😶

I think the definition of a woman is not purely chromosomal. It is a combination of chromosomes, external sex organs and circulating hormones.

So, a ‘man in a dress’ is definitely not a woman, but a fully transitioned trans woman has met point 2 and (some of) point 3, as I think trans women do not have the complex hormonal profile of natal women. Genes do need to be expressed to be relevant.

So a trans woman may not be 100% a woman , but may be closer to woman than man.

@BilindaB

Next year... You thought dictionaries were your allies, but I could always see the day you would have to denounce them.

Oh my 😳

I'm not having a go at you crispsarny, just thought I'd add to your very correct point!

[quote FloralBunting]I stayed for the promised definition of woman that would prove a TW is a woman, and all I got was this GFery.

😶

I'm happy to respect preferred pronouns and I'd want to be an ally to anyone who has made the tough decision to transition.

I don't want to pick on you Doublevacc, but I think this is an interesting philosophical point I'd like to dig into.

I am a feminist, and I subscribe to this definition of feminism by Andrea Dworkin.

Feminism is a political practice of fighting male supremacy in behalf of women as a class, including all the women you don't like, including all the women you don't want to be around, including all the women who used to be your best friends whom you don't want anything to do with anymore. It doesn't matter who the individual women are. They all have the same vulnerability to rape, to battery, as children to incest. Poorer women have more vulnerability to prostitution, which is basically a form of sexual exploitation that is intolerable in an egalitarian society, which is the society we are fighting for.

Andrea Dworkin also wanted the transsexuals of her time to have access to state-funded surgery to make their bodies the way they desired, so they didn't end up prostituting themselves to pay for it. I also agree with her on this, and I am supportive of the NHS to funding Evidence Based Treatment for adults.

However, do I have a duty to be an ally to anyone who transitions? Consider Brennan up above. Brennan sexually abused multiple girls. They are of my sex class, and subjected to sexual violence. If Brennan has their penis surgically modified, does that mean Brennan is more entitled to inclusion in the feminist movement than their female victims? Is Brennan more entitled to my advocacy?

Surely I have a choice in whom I fight for?

The question is somewhat academic as of people who say they are trans choose to have no medical treatment at all – no surgery, no drugs [[https://forwomen.scot/did-you-know/]], so Brennan themselves probably won't. But it's something we should iron out, because it's come up.

For example, the serial killer Donna (formerly Douglas) Perry killed at least nine women before having full reassignment surgery.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donna_Perry_(serial_killer)

Am I obliged to care more about Perry because of their penis surgery than I should care about the women in the women's prison where Perry is currently housed?

So a trans woman may not be 100% a woman , but may be closer to woman than man.

a) most of these male people don't have surgery, only a tiny percentage do

b) regarding the minority who do the resultant "neovagina" is not an actual vagina and they do not have a female reproductive system, but a male one.

So no. A male who has had some cosmetic surgery and taken oestrogen. Still as much male as any other male. Because a male is simply a member of the sex class that produces sperm, not ova, which is what the sex class called female can produce.

I mean, there are many women that give me tingly feelings...

But no, TW are not women in any way shape or form. So obviously they are never lesbians. (Look at me all on topic and shit!)

Sorry, broken link.

"80-95% of people who say they are trans choose to have no medical treatment at all – no surgery, no drugs"
forwomen.scot/did-you-know/

PurgatoryOfPotholes great post

Dictionaries have never been my ally to be fair

Im rubbish at spelling and if i asked teachers how to spell a word they’d tell me to look in the dictionary…well if I don’t know how to at least start to spell it how am I supposed to look it up

I think the definition of a woman is not purely chromosomal. It is a combination of chromosomes, external sex organs and circulating hormones.

I'm sorry, but that is hilarious. It's cargo cult nonsense.

It's like saying "a computer is a combination of electronic circuits, a keyboard, and a plastic box".

So a horse in a plastic box with a keyboard strapped on like a saddle may not be 100% a computer, but may be closer to computer than horse.

@RedDogsBeg

I'm not having a go at you crispsarny, just thought I'd add to your very correct point!

thanks Red

Necessary

@Ereshkigalangcleg,

Your answer to my comment had a lot in common with TWAW-it is very faith based.

Circulating hormones affect all secondary sexual characteristics.

Where I do agree with you (as I said) is that transitioning towards (not to) another sex requires both surgery and hormones. It is not ‘a feeling’.

It's not "faith-based" to understand what sex is.

Sex is about which gametes (of the two) your body is set up to produce, not your hormones or secondary sex characteristics. Men with moobs are not "closer to women than men" because they have more fatty tissue in their breasts.

I think NecessaryScene answered you perfectly.

@Ereshkigalangcleg,

I was going to reply to the ‘horse box’, but it was too ludicrous.

Surgeons and endocrinologists are not as stupid as you clearly believe them to be.

They may not know how to build the full ‘computer’ yet, but they are a lot further down the line than just chucking some components in a box.

Just to be clear, lesbians are attracted to other women. Not nearly women, or not quite men.

I was going to reply to the ‘horse box’, but it was too ludicrous.

Not really, just pointing out your logic fail. You're entitled to your personal beliefs, of course.

It's not surgeons and endocrinologists you need it is genetic engineers TheReluctantPhoenix.

I guess I'm sitting uncomfortably somewhere in the middle of the debate and thinking about the arguments on both sides.

You either believe that human females are a distinct class and need to be seen as such, or you believe that 'woman' is a self-determined gender. Why are you 'sitting uncomfortably' with your opinions?

If you want to compromise and make 'woman' mean different things at different times, we need to be clear about the definitions and consequences. Is that what you are uncomfortable with - having serveral definitions for 'woman'?

@FloralBunting

Just to be clear, lesbians are attracted to other women. Not nearly women, or not quite men.

This.

And also this from you, from upthread:

I'm not looking for a row. I'm, quite honestly, demanding that lesbians can say openly and without apology or qualification that they are lesbian and that it is simply accepted that they are under no obligation whatsoever to be open to males, not even the subset of males who believe themselves to be female. That they don't have to be circumspect about saying they are lesbian in case someone finds it offensive or hurtful. Because homosexuality is protected by law. And nothing like racism, which isn't.

Women are used to asking nicely, pretty please, while men are used to demanding.

Women need to do a whole lot more demanding. Easier said than done, of course, given male power and privilege, and female socialisation. But I think Floral sets a great example for us there.

@NecessaryScene

I think the definition of a woman is not purely chromosomal. It is a combination of chromosomes, external sex organs and circulating hormones.

I'm sorry, but that is hilarious. It's cargo cult nonsense.

It's like saying "a computer is a combination of electronic circuits, a keyboard, and a plastic box".

So a horse in a plastic box with a keyboard strapped on like a saddle may not be 100% a computer, but may be closer to computer than horse.

Brilliant