Do we have it anywhere on record that Stonewall does/does not support people to express their sexuality as exclusively homosexual?

[JustcameoutGC]

The expectation that lesbians accept partners with penises was one of the things that really made me start questioning gender identity politics more closely.

Exclusively homosexual lesbian spaces have disappeared as viewed to be transphobic. Just look on any lesbian dating apps and many of the users are male and be-penised. Some may be fine with this, but all of my lesbian friends are not, and they feel very disenfranchised, but equally they feel unable to speak out. Just look at what happened in Manchester.

I just can't wrap my head around how the prevoiusly stalwart and highly effective champion of gay rights has now essentially outlawed exclusive homosexuality.

Have they made any statements that make this stance clear? Have they actively said they do not support exclusively homosexual spaces?

Thank-you Doublevacc, that means a lot to me.

@BilindaB

2. is a circular definition. You have used the word being defined in the definition itself.

That's how dictionaries do it, I showed that last time. Go look for yourself.

No you didn’t. The example you thought proved your point was an example of X being “in the shape of” Y, which means the definition of Y can be used despite X not being the same thing as Y.

Your definition of

1. An adult human female
2. Someone born male who has transitioned to being a woman

Doesn’t work because 2 expands to:

Someone born male who has transitioned to being An adult human female

Which is impossible.

A gravy boat is not an ocean going vessel and a male who transitions is not a female.

You know this of course. Given that all these points were made to you already when you made the original comment and you have not acknowledged them it’s hard to feel that you are arguing in good faith so I don’t expect this to change your mind or indeed stop you making the same invalid point in future. I just think recording the gaps in the argument so it stands alongside the fallacy for the record is useful.

Oh, I didn't realise that was you Bilinda. That a gravy boat is an actual boat because the dictionary uses it as an example of something shaped like a boat.

A gravy bot could be a tiny little boat, I suppose. Does it depend if it floats?

Wait - is it like witches?!

If it sinks, it's an innocent gravy boat.

If it floats, it's a nasty witchy potion-cauldron.

That's eggshells, isn't it?

If it floats, it's a nasty witchy potion-cauldron
or a duck

Ducks, eggs, gravy-boats, witches. All much of a muchness! A loose, shifting constellation.

@ArabellaScott

Wait - is it like witches?!

Personally, I'm not sure I agree that everyone who says they are a woman is a woman. I do have some concerns about transwomen in sport and in women's prisons.

And therein lies the rub as the Bard says - how are you going to differentiate? What criteria are you going to impose to decide that that person is okay, but that other person is not?

I'm glad you have some concerns about transwomen in the female prison estate, I have more than some concerns I think it is absolutely abhorrent that female prisoners, some of the most vulnerable women in society, are being abused, assaulted and raped by male sex offenders who claim they are now women. Do you think this is an acceptable add on to a prison sentence for a woman, the risk of being sexually assaulted or raped? Because I fucking don't.

But I also think it must be awful to feel you are trapped in the wrong body and to feel so rejected by both toxic masculinity and by feminists

There is no such thing as being trapped in the wrong body, it's a nonsense and has, quite rightly been debunked and deemed damaging rhetoric by the Government. A certain charity that used to espouse it has had to remove all reference to it (and then lied that they'd ever said it in the first place but the internet doesn't forget).

I won't give up safeguarding, women's rights or children's rights in order to assuage the feelings of anyone. Nor will I stand idly by and see lesbians (and gay men) coerced, bullied or shamed for their sexual orientation in order to mollify others.

extract

For the past two years, Heather Mason has been advocating for criminalized women on a variety of prison issues, including segregation, strip-searching and conditions of confinement during the COVID-19 pandemic. In communications with these women, many have reported distressing experiences with male prisoners. Ordeals recounted to Mason include “frequent issues of sexual assault, sexual harassment, stalking, sexually transmitted diseases, negative impacts to programming, negative emotional impacts, increased issues with drugs, and increased issues of fear of retaliation”. In her brief, Mason summarizes numerous instances of women reporting frightening actions (including violent crime) perpetrated by male prisoners, such as rape, sexual assault, exhibitionism (i.e. exposing their genitalia to the women), and sexual harassment. The latter offense includes instances of convicted pedophiles loitering near a woman and her child (who were part of the mother-child program), and “making sexist and inappropriate antagonizing comments”.

Mason also notes that women have pathways and histories to criminality that differ from male prisoners, including those who identify as women. Many male transgender-identifying prisoners “have appalling crimes of assault, sexual violence, and murder against women and children”. She points out that merging these two groups of prisoners (women and transgendered individuals transferring from men’s prisons) obscures differences in their differing pathways and histories, impacts security protocols, results in deteriorating physical and mental health for women, and heightens women’s trauma reactions. Several women also told her that “transgender individuals break the rules without any response or reprimand fromcorrectional staff, including the known distributing of drugs, the known ingestion ofdrugs, the known threatening of women with assault or murder, and failing to stand forcount among other things.” Further exacerbating the situation, women report having their accounts of violence dismissed by prison staff, organizations and politicians, thus leaving them “without supports,without recourse and without any surety of security from targeted sexism and sexual violence”. Since any disclosure of violence committed by transgender-identifying individuals is treated as transphobia, in many instances, women avoid reporting their experiences. This occurs in a context where women “are already reluctant to do so due to the shame around sexual assault, sexual harassment and reporting in prison generally”.

Continue reading Women Petition Parliament to Stop Placement of Male Inmates in Women’s Prisons | Women Are Human. Read more at: www.womenarehuman.com/women-petition-parliament-to-stop-placement-of-male-prisoners-in-womens-prisons/

But I also think it must be awful to feel you are trapped in the wrong body and to feel so rejected by both toxic masculinity and by feminists

It is indeed a cruelty to a person to allow them to think that they are trapped in the wrong body. How would this help someone with a disability? Believing they are trapped in the wrong body?

How does one know they are in the 'right' body?

I recommend watching some of the detransitioner videos. There is a rapidly growing number of them, some still have their transition videos up as well. Many were teenagers who bought into the 'wrong body' rhetoric.

I watched one today where the now 26 year old realised quickly once the euphoria of achieving their step by step goal of different achievements (Testosterone, voice dropping, mastectomy etc) that they were never going to be in the 'right body' because it was impossible. They looked enough to fool others that they were a man but could never fool themselves.

These are raw and honest accounts. These detransitioners don't do this for glory, they receive threats from trans people. They do this to help people understand the dangers in believing without question - as people wanting to transition or simply to be allies.

And if these people who transition are not 'trapped in the wrong body', what is the basis of their dysphoria, if they even have dysphoria? What is the basis of their supposed feeling of being of the other sex? Remember, it is their perception of how the other sex feels. Merely perception.

And therein lies the rub as the Bard says - how are you going to differentiate? What criteria are you going to impose to decide that that person is okay, but that other person is not?

Let's consider this case from May.

report

A transgender woman who committed a string of sexual assaults on girls as young as four over a 17-year period has been jailed for 22 years.

Jessica Brennan, known as Allan Brennan at the time of the offences, groomed then sexually abused the four children between1998 and 2016.

Jessica Brennan, known as Allan Brennan at the time of the offences, groomed then sexually abused the four children between 1998 and 2016.The 54-year-old tried to rape one of the children and another girl was subjected to systematic abuse over the course of a decade, which involved 'multiple' incidents.

(continues)

The Ministry of Justice would not reveal which prison Brennan will be sent to following her sentencing, though she was in male-only HMP Hull prior to her court appearance.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9596003/amp/Transgender-woman-sexually-abused-girls-young-four-jailed-22-years.html

So Brennan seems to have come out as trans comparatively recently. Brennan was called Allan while abusing children for nearly 20 years and also seems to have had no dysphoria over Brennan's penis while raping children with it.

So why isn't the Ministry of Justice assuring us that Brennan will go to a men's prison now?

Being 'trapped in the wrong body' is considered outdated as a descriptive concept according to the latest Genderist thinking.

I'm sure most women understand the idea of feeling like your body isn't right. I would think it's as common as feeling like you've put your socks on wrong.

@FloralBunting

I'd just like to say that I am convinced Belinda (or is it Bettina? whatever) is here with women's best interests at heart, and every post is very definitely in good faith and I'm sure everyone reading can see that for themselves.

Just joined to chime in, I can see for myself, posters like Bilinda are clearly on a wind up same as that other poster in the thread yesterday regarding the homophobic attack in Manchester - in fact that users style was like another users I’ve seen here before, clearly lots of sock puppetry & trolling going on.

@Doublevacc

BilindaB, I haven't read the whole thread but I wanted to say that I appreciate the tone of your argument and in my view, you seem to be trying to have a reasoned debate here. I'm grateful that you are hanging on in there and making the effort.

There are obviously a number of posters who have totally made up their minds on this issue and are not at all open to argument. But I think there are probably many others who are trying to engage with the issues and make up their own minds.

Personally, I'm not sure I agree that everyone who says they are a woman is a woman. I do have some concerns about transwomen in sport and in women's prisons. But I also think it must be awful to feel you are trapped in the wrong body and to feel so rejected by both toxic masculinity and by feminists. I'm happy to respect preferred pronouns and I'd want to be an ally to anyone who has made the tough decision to transition.

I guess I'm sitting uncomfortably somewhere in the middle of the debate and thinking about the arguments on both sides. I'm pleased that you are taking the time to engage and explain what often seems a minority viewpoint on here. Thank you.

Reasoned?! All I see is homophobic victim blaming bile.

Reasoned?! All I see is homophobic victim blaming bile.

and misogyny, don't forget the misogyny. Homophobia and misogyny run through this like the lettering in a stick of rock.

There are obviously a number of posters who have totally made up their minds on this issue and are not at all open to argument. But I think there are probably many others who are trying to engage with the issues and make up their own minds.

Those of us who 'have totally made up their minds on this issue' have done so after engaging with the issues and making up our own minds. It's because we have read and discussed this so much that we have made up our minds. I think that applies to the majority of people who post here. Periodically someone posts an 'are we the baddies?' thread, as there is always that niggling doubt that perhaps there is something we've missed and we've got this wrong. But there is never any really convincing counter argument.

But I also think it must be awful to feel you are trapped in the wrong body and to feel so rejected by both toxic masculinity and by feminists.

You sound as though you are suggesting feminists have something in common with toxic masculinity. I'm sure you didn't mean to do this. Women who are standing up for the rights of women and protection of children have nothing in common with 'toxic masculinity'.

I'm happy to respect preferred pronouns and I'd want to be an ally to anyone who has made the tough decision to transition.

What 'tough decisions' do you think 'anyone' who transitions has made? Alex Drummond or Danielle Muscato for example?

Wanky and captured though Merriam Webster is, they don't actually include males in their definition of "woman", it's "an adult female person" so clearly they only put in the "trans woman" bit to appease genderists.

There are obviously a number of posters who have totally made up their minds on this issue and are not at all open to argument

A) some posters have been on here talking about it for years, theyve masses of links to articles, evidence, statistics etc…they are very open to arguments as long as there is similar research

B) posters like bilinda have also made up their minds on this issue and are not open to arguement

You can add sexism, racism and anti any other protected characteristic to my previous list crispsarny

@RedDogsBeg

Reasoned?! All I see is homophobic victim blaming bile.

and misogyny, don't forget the misogyny. Homophobia and misogyny run through this like the lettering in a stick of rock.

Yes of course but as we all well know it’s a given isn’t it but it’s sad that I’m thinking like that isn’t it? To be honest I’m so bloody angry though now & at the point of fuck this shit right off!

Next year...
You thought dictionaries were your allies, but I could always see the day you would have to denounce them.

@RedDogsBeg

You can add sexism, racism and anti any other protected characteristic to my previous list crispsarny

Yes sorry & those too, sadly I could be here a while pointing these things out though, I was typing quickly, I did type misogyny but deleted as like I said it’s a given, we’re on a feminism section.