Do we have it anywhere on record that Stonewall does/does not support people to express their sexuality as exclusively homosexual?

[JustcameoutGC]

The expectation that lesbians accept partners with penises was one of the things that really made me start questioning gender identity politics more closely.

Exclusively homosexual lesbian spaces have disappeared as viewed to be transphobic. Just look on any lesbian dating apps and many of the users are male and be-penised. Some may be fine with this, but all of my lesbian friends are not, and they feel very disenfranchised, but equally they feel unable to speak out. Just look at what happened in Manchester.

I just can't wrap my head around how the prevoiusly stalwart and highly effective champion of gay rights has now essentially outlawed exclusive homosexuality.

Have they made any statements that make this stance clear? Have they actively said they do not support exclusively homosexual spaces?

Oh right. I've already answered that in another

How about you copy and paste it and post it here,.along with your apology for your remarks about same sex attracted people.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Oh right. I've already answered that in another thread.

Have you? A bit odd to say you would have to go away and think about it because you want to get the words right then, no?

I misread or misthought the question was what makes a TW a woman. Sorry.

@334bu

*Oh right. I've already answered that in another *

How about you copy and paste it and post it here,.along with your apology for your remarks about same sex attracted people.

How about I don't and if you're curious go find it.

I misread or misthought the question was what makes a TW a woman. Sorry.

The same thing that makes a woman a woman is what rules a male in or out though, depending on your belief, surely. So it's the same question.

@BilindaB

Unlike actual transphobic people, the majority of gender critical feminists acknowledge that there are male bodied people who feel distress that they are not female. And they have great sympathy for that I refer you to what the Greatest Tranphobe of all JKR actually wrote.

But the point is that women only spaces and sports aren't there because of an internal feeling - they exist solely because of the reality of women and mens biology.

Where there are not biological differences/risks there should be no separate spaces.

women and Girls sport doesn't exist so they call all chat about their inner feelings - its because of the physical reality.

Bilinda if you're not willing to engage with people who quite rightly would like to know your reasoning for dismissing women's concerns, what do you imagine you have to contribute in these discussions?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I don't think of them as men, remember. You do, I don't.

You do know they aren't female. So you are prioritising males over females, whatever semantic somersaults you want to do, to extend the analogy from earlier.

Yes. quite.

Whatever special category they are placed in, they are prioritised above women.

Just because they don't think of themselves as men, or don't 'feel' like men, doesn't change the fact they are not women.

Jane Clare Jones reminded us all on Glinner's podcast recently that the issue IS that genderists cannot understand that the word woman is eternally linked to female as a sex term. It is not a socially constructed gender term that they wish it to be. Just because they try to use that word to define what they mean, doesn't mean that it is correct. It is really like arguing over the meaning of a word when one group has changed the meaning but the rest of the world doesn't accept that change.

This isn't your GC forum and I'm your guest. It's a forum for feminists (and mothers) so I'll stick around or leave or say what I think or not on my terms. Get it? Got it? Good.

^ directed at Ereshkigalangcleg

Get it? Got it? Good.

Christ my wanker of a brother used to say this back in the mists of time when we were children, it is now as it was then the ultimate sign of childishness and inability to form a coherent argument or debate.

I misread or misthought the question was what makes a TW a woman. Sorry.

It's the same thing bilinda. What does the word 'women' mean in transwomen are women?

You are either claiming that the word woman, the very concept of it, is a feeling in a man's head.

Or, a feeling in a man's head entitles him to eliminate the very concept of the word woman. In rape refugees, sports, political representation, statistics, data, prison segregation, language, schools, the lot.

I'm really not being funny, but please think about your over arching need to centre the feelings of men, over everything and anything to do with women and children's safety.

Christ my wanker of a brother used to say this back in the mists of time when we were children, it is now as it was then the ultimate sign of childishness and inability to form a coherent argument or debate.

Well, yes. It's quite funny when supposed adults say these things. What's next? "End of"? "Fact"?

Who is asking you to leave?

You are as welcome here as we are. And frankly, the many people reading along see the trail of unanswered questions, distractions and hand waving and go and try to find out answers for themselves elsewhere. When they realise that there is nothing concrete about the foundations of the things you and others assert, they draw their own conclusions.

So, I, like many others on this board, encourage a range of positions to be posted. Unlike your statement up thread that we are 'entrenched', I reject this as I am sure many other posters here would. I am always open to reading new studies, new papers, new perspectives when I find them.

However, the tactic of 'you are all in an echo chamber' and 'you are unwilling to change your minds' is very widely used and just as false as declaring that a male body can change sex in any way other than cosmetically. It generally comes from people who have picked it up from their narrow base of social media influencers and reading articles that have no balance.

Something again, that those reading along these threads pick up very quickly.

So, I, like many others on this board, encourage a range of positions to be posted.

Absolutely agree, Bilinda, if you're in any doubt. But obviously people are going to question why if TWAW is so important for us to believe you can't explain it easily.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Christ my wanker of a brother used to say this back in the mists of time when we were children, it is now as it was then the ultimate sign of childishness and inability to form a coherent argument or debate.

Well, yes. It's quite funny when supposed adults say these things. What's next? "End of"? "Fact"?

We could go really retro with "Talk to the hand"

@nauticant

The trans activist responses on this thread reminds me of a trick Tony Blair learned to use when the New Labour government started to lose its appetite for openess and honesty. When asked a question rather than answering it he'd refer the questioner to an answer he'd given in the past to a similar but different question.

Oh right. I've already answered that in another thread.

"Period". But that's a bit exclusionary.

Good point, nauticant

I think we've wandered off-topic somewhat.

I see Marion Millar has weeesht. These new suffragettes are rubbish.

Definition of a woman.

1.Adult human female.

1. Someone born male who has transitioned to being a woman.

What does "transitioning to be a woman" involve? How is someone not born female a woman or do you genuinely feel it's up to the individual to decide their sex?

Talking of your feminism, I asked whether you regretted endorsing an argument that the man in the LGB t-shirt had provoked the crowd because of what he was wearing, after I pointed out it was a carbon copy of the traditional arguments that women provoke men into raping them, because of what they're wearing.

I never expected to see a "s/he was asking for it, dressed like that" post on mumsnet's feminism section, and it was sickening to see you hadn't made the connection, as you quoted it with approval.

Have you rethought it now?

@BilindaB

Definition of a woman.

1.Adult human female.

1. Someone born male who has transitioned to being a woman.

So female people are women and male people are women.

Female people are well within their right to not "do dick" as long as they don't be too vocal about it.

No keep going Bilinda please do, this is fascinating.

I think it would be more beneficial to Marion (and us all, however we feel about this one issue) for the case to be dropped on human rights grounds, personally. If the suffragettes had had that possibility I'm sure they would have taken it.

@BilindaB

Definition of a woman.

1.Adult human female.

1. Someone born male who has transitioned to being a woman.

Haha!

The second one is impossible.

An adult human male, of or denoting the sex who produces sperm, cannot become an adult human female, of or denoting the sex who produces eggs.

Your definition is relying on something that's impossible.

A unicorn is something that was born a dog but transitions to become a unicorn.

Hey presto!!!