I found this slightly reassuring - re girls IDing as boys

[QueenPeary]

Until recently despite engaging in the gender debate a lot and having a VERY full-on TRA family member, I hadn't had much direct experience of trans-IDing children.

But recently 2 of my DD's female classmates (year 6), one a close friend, have started IDing as boys, have boys names etc and this is being embraced by the school. My DD knows my GC views and we discuss it, but I have agreed to be respectful in using the right names etc (though I avoid using he pronouns).

Anyway - what I found reassuring is that both have discussed it with my DD and said they know they are not actually boys, and are not interested in taking drugs or having a penis. So despite the school being captured and going along with the full TWAW/TMAM etc, the kids (sometimes) aren't. They seem to realise it's an identity to try on, akin to a fashion or music tribe, and so maybe - I hope - there's a way in which girls (and maybe boys too) can go through this without it having to involve the long-term risks to their health.

I still don't think they are a "he" and I don't think it's going down a very healthy or feminist path to ID as a boy instead of just being a girl of whatever type you want to be. But I am kind of heartened that maybe this trend could default back to something more akin to good old 80s "gender bending" and away from the idea of actually changing sex.

Of course many kids still are at risk of both harmful medicalisation and anti-science ideology and I'm not minimising that – but wondered what people thought.

We've been trying to tell you this all along: that kids should be free to experiment with gender, and that there's no harm whatsoever with letting them use the label and pronouns they want.

Kids should be free to experiment with gender - absolutely and they always have.

No harm in using the label and pronouns they want - the harm is when you tell kids they can literally be the opposite sex, especially if you encourage them to take puberty blockers/hormones/have surgery. Because a) they can never really be the opposite sex and b) this lands them in a very horrible situation if they later change their minds, which is normal for kids.

Experimenting with gender would be fine if it wasn't for the conflation with sex, which cannot be changed.

GC feminists do not have a problem with experimentation with gender. Been doing that for decades.

When I was in Year 6, I was Thunderbird 1.

Or are you suggesting hexedboogie that there hasn't been a TRA campaign to grant access to PBs and cross-sex hormones for kids, including without parental consent?

And in my view, experimenting with gender does not make you "trans". I've been gender non-conforming since childhood and I'm very happy as a woman thanks very much. Gender is not a binary - everyone experiments and has a combination of what are viewed as masculine and feminine elements in their gender expression and personality. There are also many activities that are not seen as either masculine or feminine and people do them too - like for example writing, drawing, gardening. So of course Ki thionk everyone should be able to experiment and live as they like.

What is not OK - and is also regressive and sexist - is that tending towards masculine-stereotyped interests or style makes you a boy if you are in fact a girl.

the idea that

@HexedBoogie

We've been trying to tell you this all along: that kids should be free to experiment with gender, and that there's no harm whatsoever with letting them use the label and pronouns they want.

Errrr no, I think you'll find it's GC people that have been doing that! Nice bit of gaslighting there!

There is an awful lot of harm when children are changing names and pronouns as a maladaptive coping mechanism. For some it will be a bit of a light experiment in pushing boundaries, but for others it is extremely damaging and schools do not have the expertise to distinguish between the two without parental and (as appropriate) professional input.

Yes - I'm not OK at all with agreeing with a girl that she's a boy or a "he" - but I felt that this attitude from these girls was a step in the right direction and could (if it's not a one-off - or two-off!) signal the start of a way out of this if you see what I mean.

Experimenting with gender is absolutely fine, as long as it is seen for what it actually is - and that is simply an expression of one's personality, and not their biology.

A female having a short hair cut, watching football, playing with cars or wearing trousers does not make them a boy, and certainly not a male. These are just interests that amongst a myriad of other things make up their personality. It's when others start interfering and insisting these things make them a boy that it becomes worrying. First of all it's a horrible sexist stereotype that any of these things make you a boy. Just be a girl who likes these things.

When a teen expresses themselves through goth clothing, makeup and hairstyles we don't rush to affirm that they're actually a vampire. We don't tell them or encourage them that to be happy and healthy they should start maintaining a diet of human blood. No we let them crack on and express themselves until they grow out of it.

@QueenPeary

Kids should be free to experiment with gender - absolutely and they always have.

No harm in using the label and pronouns they want - the harm is when you tell kids they can literally be the opposite sex, especially if you encourage them to take puberty blockers/hormones/have surgery. Because a) they can never really be the opposite sex and b) this lands them in a very horrible situation if they later change their minds, which is normal for kids.

Experimenting with gender would be fine if it wasn't for the conflation with sex, which cannot be changed.

GC feminists do not have a problem with experimentation with gender. Been doing that for decades.

Puberty blockers are harmless and trans kids should have access to them once they reach puberty age, in order to prevent any irreversible changes.

Biological sex can be altered, and if that's what a kid needs to be happy, they should not be locked out of developing the kind of body they want.

Yes if kids can approach this as a 'trying on for size'-type identity exploration, no problem. For typically-developing children with no neurodevelopmental differences, no unmet mental health needs, secure in themselves, no problem. Like you say, for many it's probably just today's tribal affiliation.

Children with pre-existing vulnerabilities, and especially when they have literal or black-and-white thinking styles, and a v different emotional world (half of autistic kids have alexithymia) - it's these who are struggling to engage with gender role-play in this creative and experimental way. It's for such kids that gender ideology is a risk - and, frankly, an it's a major injustice to their life chances. They do often think they actually are a boy, or a girl - they just 'are' that. Adopting a new identity solves big problems for them, as it renders their differences and social difficulties acceptable to their peers. But they adhere to their new identity in a way that can render those problems less accessible to exploration and resolution. And these are the ones going forward for physical interventions - huge, invasive medical steps that likely won't solve their problems, and may simply add to them.

@QueenPeary
Yes - I'm not OK at all with agreeing with a girl that she's a boy or a "he"

Why not?

Puberty blockers are harmless and trans kids should have access to them once they reach puberty age, in order to prevent any irreversible changes.

Biological sex can be altered, and if that's what a kid needs to be happy, they should not be locked out of developing the kind of body they want.

Dear god, what a load of nonsense.

Biological sex can be altered

No. It really can't. It is a fixed fact throughout life, from conception to the last trace of DNA.

Second time in a day on Mumsnet I have seen a poster in all seriousness say that biological sex can be changed. How on earth do you think this is possible? It is utter nonsense.

Puberty blockers are harmless
Except for the small matter of infertility, loss of sexual function, decrease in bone density, increased risk of suicidal feelings, mood alterations, hot flushes and fatigue.

in order to prevent any irreversible changes
You mean like the irreversible changes puberty blockers themselves cause? Like the irreversible changes Keira Bell now has to love with?

Biological sex can be altered
I don't really know what to say to this other than, no, no it cannot

Live with*

Biological sex can be altered
🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
No words.

[quote HexedBoogie]@QueenPeary
Yes - I'm not OK at all with agreeing with a girl that she's a boy or a "he"

Why not?[/quote]
Because she's a girl? It's actually very simple, really.

@Itsinthetreesitscoming

Second time in a day on Mumsnet I have seen a poster in all seriousness say that biological sex can be changed. How on earth do you think this is possible? It is utter nonsense.

Hormones are a component of biological sex, and one of the key factors in sexual development.

Hormone therapy alters biological sex.

@GreyhoundG1rl

Biological sex can be altered 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄 No words.

True, there's genuinely no words for your stubborn scientific ignorance.

Hormones do not alter biological sex.

The person remains that sex. From conception to the last trace of DNA. Cosmetic alterations are not a change in sex. This is fact.

@Flamglimglubberty
"Except for the small matter of infertility, loss of sexual function, decrease in bone density"

All of which is perfectly reversible once kids do receive hormones and go through puberty, whichever one they end up going through.

We've been trying to tell you this all along: that kids should be free to experiment with gender, and that there's no harm whatsoever with letting them use the label and pronouns they want.

Errrr no, I think you'll find it's GC people that have been doing that! Nice bit of gaslighting there!

If you genuinely think this is true, then I strongly suggest listening to what we are actually saying. You might be pleasantly surprised.