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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I found this slightly reassuring - re girls IDing as boys

851 replies

QueenPeary · 21/08/2021 13:36

Until recently despite engaging in the gender debate a lot and having a VERY full-on TRA family member, I hadn't had much direct experience of trans-IDing children.

But recently 2 of my DD's female classmates (year 6), one a close friend, have started IDing as boys, have boys names etc and this is being embraced by the school. My DD knows my GC views and we discuss it, but I have agreed to be respectful in using the right names etc (though I avoid using he pronouns).

Anyway - what I found reassuring is that both have discussed it with my DD and said they know they are not actually boys, and are not interested in taking drugs or having a penis. So despite the school being captured and going along with the full TWAW/TMAM etc, the kids (sometimes) aren't. They seem to realise it's an identity to try on, akin to a fashion or music tribe, and so maybe - I hope - there's a way in which girls (and maybe boys too) can go through this without it having to involve the long-term risks to their health.

I still don't think they are a "he" and I don't think it's going down a very healthy or feminist path to ID as a boy instead of just being a girl of whatever type you want to be. But I am kind of heartened that maybe this trend could default back to something more akin to good old 80s "gender bending" and away from the idea of actually changing sex.

Of course many kids still are at risk of both harmful medicalisation and anti-science ideology and I'm not minimising that – but wondered what people thought.

OP posts:
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Jaysmith71 · 21/08/2021 15:20

Even the utterly captured Wikipedia acknowledges that Fausto-Sterling's 'five sexes' hypothesis has more support in gender studies departments that it does over in the science block where they still believe in Biology.

GreyhoundG1rl · 21/08/2021 15:20

you're going to look back on this phase and cringe you know
Not anytime soon, unfortunately.

HexedBoogie · 21/08/2021 15:20

@IAmNotAClownfish

Now you're changing the subject to talk about gender identity, whereas before you said

Hormone therapy alters biological sex.

So in that case, surely if a woman has a naturally higher level of testosterone, they must be more of a man using your logic?

Nope, because biological sex does not define whether one is a man or a woman.

That said, you could argue whether hormone levels make one more or less "biologically male" or "biologically female", or whatever.

Personally, I genuinely do not care for that part.

Mummyoflittledragon · 21/08/2021 15:21

Which components of biological sex can puberty blockers and cross sex hormones alter @HexedBoogie

GeorgeMichaelBluth · 21/08/2021 15:22

@HexedBoogie
It literally is, we've been telling you all along we should allow kids to dress AND IDENTIFY however they want.

This is what we have always been referring to as social transition: Just a matter of outfits, names, and pronouns.

Then stop trying to give them drugs and telling them to use toilets designated for the opposite sex. Give women and girls privacy.

Anyway. I was surprised to see that OP experience is primary school aged children. Are the primary schools in on this now?

GreyhoundG1rl · 21/08/2021 15:22

Nope, because biological sex does not define whether one is a man or a woman.
Sweet Jesus.

TheFairPrincess · 21/08/2021 15:23

@HexedBoogie

I think you're coming at this from the backward end.

There's nothing wrong with biological sex being binary and relating to male and female. The default position and what will apply to most people.

It doesn't invalidate trans identity or take away the ability for trans people to live as their chosen identity. You don't have to try and disprove the concept of biological sex in order to validate trans identity, don't fall into that logic.

The fact that some people feel strongly enough that they identify as the opposite sex is enough. It's been enough for society, it's been enough to be recognised in law. Please don't feel that you need to argue about chromosome and hormones in order for this for trans identities to be "legitimate".

CorvusPurpureus · 21/08/2021 15:23

So can biological sex be changed, HexedBogie, or is it irrelevant anyway? Seems a contradictory little corner you're boxing yourself into.

TheFairPrincess · 21/08/2021 15:23

That is the default position*

Beamur · 21/08/2021 15:23

Pigeon chess..

Datun · 21/08/2021 15:23

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

"Man" and "woman" are gender identities

no they're not

they're sexes

I see the problem now. you don't understand words

😂😂

HexedBoogie

This is it. It's the words.

Boy, girl, man woman denote what sex you are.

Masculine and feminine denote characteristics often attributed to what sex you are.

Do you want to make masculine or feminine (or some other internal feeling that no one can see or describe), to mean man or woman, you're going to have to come up with another word for men or women, meaning a sex-based description.

If woman is not sex based, what is your word for an adult human female?

TheFairPrincess · 21/08/2021 15:24

Wow that was a shit load of typos but I hope you get my drift Confused

Congressdingo · 21/08/2021 15:25

Well guess what, you're the flat earthers in this scenario, because the scientific consensus firmly disagrees with your simplistic understanding of sex and gender

Err simplistic? You sure?

So you know some men who are now transwomen and can by dint of puberty blockers and cross sex hormones carry and birth a baby via their neo vagina?
Please do show us these miracles of science, am pretty sure theres a series of writings about them.

Out of curiosity, what do you understand of the difference between sex and gender?

HexedBoogie · 21/08/2021 15:25

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

basic sociology

ah basic sociology

so much more important than basic biology

you're going to look back on this phase and cringe you know

Basic sociology is understanding that "man" and "woman" are socially constructed identities that are part of the social construct of gender.

Advanced biology is understanding that biological sex is a sum of different physical components, and that many (and theoretically, all) of these components can be altered and replaced.

Basic biology is the simplistic binary idea of "biological sex" that gets taught to you in elementary school so that it's easier for you to grasp.

Tisha0 · 21/08/2021 15:26

When all of us alive right now are dead and gone, scientists will be able to test all of our DNA. Or any stage throughout our lives, even after puberty blockers and cross sex hormones (for those that follow that path), a DNA test will reflect biological reality.

Natal females will show XX, and natal males will show XY. (Excepting DSD conditions, of course).

That is what it comes down to. XX or XY.

The results certainly don’t give a flying fuck as to what any individual identifies as, what their gender identity is, how many hormones they have taken or what their pronouns are.

Science shows the immutability of sex, and will reduce each human back to XX or XY, however society has been forced to categorise varying groups.

XX or XY.

Datun · 21/08/2021 15:26

Basic sociology is understanding that "man" and "woman" are socially constructed identities that are part of the social construct of gender.

Haha!

So without referring to the words man or woman, because you can't define them, what is a gender identity?

Jaysmith71 · 21/08/2021 15:26

Just checked the main A/L syllabuses.

Basic Sociology concerns itself with gender roles.

HexedBoogie · 21/08/2021 15:28

[quote GeorgeMichaelBluth]@HexedBoogie
It literally is, we've been telling you all along we should allow kids to dress AND IDENTIFY however they want.

This is what we have always been referring to as social transition: Just a matter of outfits, names, and pronouns.

Then stop trying to give them drugs and telling them to use toilets designated for the opposite sex. Give women and girls privacy.

Anyway. I was surprised to see that OP experience is primary school aged children. Are the primary schools in on this now?[/quote]
Do you think "designated toilets" occur in biology? That sex-segregated spaces, in and of themselves, are anything but a part of society's gender norms?

IAmNotAClownfish · 21/08/2021 15:28

Right, so now when you said

Hormone therapy alters biological sex.

Do you actually believe that? Or are we now going to wave it away as you "don't care for that part"?

Because you seem to be arguing that hormones alter sex, but also that they don't and it doesn't matter anyway.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 21/08/2021 15:28

What advantages does it offer to separate areas where people may be unclothed or vulnerable, such as changing areas and hospital wards, by socially constructed identity?

OldCrone · 21/08/2021 15:28

You wouldn't need to raise your testosterone to live as a man

@HexedBoogie can you explain how a woman can live as a man?

HexedBoogie · 21/08/2021 15:29

@IAmNotAClownfish

Right, so now when you said

Hormone therapy alters biological sex.

Do you actually believe that? Or are we now going to wave it away as you "don't care for that part"?

Because you seem to be arguing that hormones alter sex, but also that they don't and it doesn't matter anyway.

Hormones do alter biological sex, but biological sex does not define one's identity.
Datun · 21/08/2021 15:29

@OldCrone

You wouldn't need to raise your testosterone to live as a man

@HexedBoogie can you explain how a woman can live as a man?

Hexed is singularly unable to tell you what a man is! Or a woman, for that matter.
Datun · 21/08/2021 15:30

Hormones do alter biological sex, but biological sex does not define one's identity.

What does it turn someone's biological sex into?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 21/08/2021 15:31

Hormones do alter biological sex
Nope

biological sex does not define one's identity.
Agreed

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