I found this slightly reassuring - re girls IDing as boys

[QueenPeary]

Until recently despite engaging in the gender debate a lot and having a VERY full-on TRA family member, I hadn't had much direct experience of trans-IDing children.

But recently 2 of my DD's female classmates (year 6), one a close friend, have started IDing as boys, have boys names etc and this is being embraced by the school. My DD knows my GC views and we discuss it, but I have agreed to be respectful in using the right names etc (though I avoid using he pronouns).

Anyway - what I found reassuring is that both have discussed it with my DD and said they know they are not actually boys, and are not interested in taking drugs or having a penis. So despite the school being captured and going along with the full TWAW/TMAM etc, the kids (sometimes) aren't. They seem to realise it's an identity to try on, akin to a fashion or music tribe, and so maybe - I hope - there's a way in which girls (and maybe boys too) can go through this without it having to involve the long-term risks to their health.

I still don't think they are a "he" and I don't think it's going down a very healthy or feminist path to ID as a boy instead of just being a girl of whatever type you want to be. But I am kind of heartened that maybe this trend could default back to something more akin to good old 80s "gender bending" and away from the idea of actually changing sex.

Of course many kids still are at risk of both harmful medicalisation and anti-science ideology and I'm not minimising that – but wondered what people thought.

HexedBoogie

Puberty blockers are harmless and trans kids should have access to them once they reach puberty age, in order to prevent any irreversible changes.

Good afternoon. "Puberty blockers" are of the class of drugs known as GnRH (gonadotropin releasing hormone) agonists. One particularly well-known brand name here is Lupron, which has a history of being temporarily prescribed to delay puberty in girls.

Let's find out what former patients say now.

extract

For years, Sharissa Derricott, 30, had no idea why her body seemed to be failing. At 21, a surgeon replaced her deteriorated jaw joint. She’s been diagnosed with degenerative disc disease and fibromyalgia, a chronic pain condition. Her teeth are shedding enamel and cracking.

None of it made sense to her until she discovered a community of women online who describe similar symptoms and have one thing in common: All had taken a drug called Lupron.

Thousands of parents chose to inject their daughters with the drug, which was approved to shut down puberty in young girls but also is commonly used off-label to help short kids grow taller.

The drug’s pediatric version comes with few warnings about long-term side effects. It is also used in adults to fight prostate cancer or relieve uterine pain and the Food and Drug Administration has warnings on the drug’s adult labels about a variety of side effects.

More than 10,000 adverse event reports filed with the FDA reflect the experiences of women who’ve taken Lupron. The reports describe everything from brittle bones to faulty joints.

In interviews and in online forums, women who took the drug as young girls or initiated a daughter’s treatment described harsh side effects that have been well-documented in adults.

Women who used Lupron a decade or more ago to delay puberty or grow taller described the short-term side effects listed on the pediatric label: pain at the injection site, mood swings, and headaches. Yet they also described conditions that usually affect people much later in life. A 20-year-old from South Carolina was diagnosed with osteopenia, a thinning of the bones, while a 25-year-old from Pennsylvania has osteoporosis and a cracked spine. A 26-year-old in Massachusetts needed a total hip replacement. A 25-year-old in Wisconsin, like Derricott, has chronic pain and degenerative disc disease.

“It just feels like I’m being punished for basically being experimented on when I was a child,” said Derricott, of Lawton, Okla. “I’d hate for a child to be put on Lupron, get to my age and go through the things I have been through.”

In the interviews with women who took Lupron to delay puberty or grow taller, most described depression and anxiety. Several recounted their struggles, or a daughter’s, with suicidal urges. One mother of a Lupron patient described seizures.

Such complaints have recently come under scrutiny at the FDA, which regulates drug safety.

Continues: www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems/

That sound harmless to you?

@HexedBoogie

We've been trying to tell you this all along: that kids should be free to experiment with gender, and that there's no harm whatsoever with letting them use the label and pronouns they want.

Stop fucking lying..you didn't do this.

@Itsinthetreesitscoming
"I think you're having us on - you can't really believe it's possible to change your DNA to become the opposite sex?

The DNA of a trans woman or trans man will still show their biological sex of male and female respectively"

Which part of DNA makes one a man or a woman?

Challenge mode: Try not to exclude a decent chunk of intersex women in your definition (Impossible)

@QueenPeary

Until recently despite engaging in the gender debate a lot and having a VERY full-on TRA family member, I hadn't had much direct experience of trans-IDing children.

But recently 2 of my DD's female classmates (year 6), one a close friend, have started IDing as boys, have boys names etc and this is being embraced by the school. My DD knows my GC views and we discuss it, but I have agreed to be respectful in using the right names etc (though I avoid using he pronouns).

Anyway - what I found reassuring is that both have discussed it with my DD and said they know they are not actually boys, and are not interested in taking drugs or having a penis. So despite the school being captured and going along with the full TWAW/TMAM etc, the kids (sometimes) aren't. They seem to realise it's an identity to try on, akin to a fashion or music tribe, and so maybe - I hope - there's a way in which girls (and maybe boys too) can go through this without it having to involve the long-term risks to their health.

I still don't think they are a "he" and I don't think it's going down a very healthy or feminist path to ID as a boy instead of just being a girl of whatever type you want to be. But I am kind of heartened that maybe this trend could default back to something more akin to good old 80s "gender bending" and away from the idea of actually changing sex.

Of course many kids still are at risk of both harmful medicalisation and anti-science ideology and I'm not minimising that – but wondered what people thought.

Maybe the trend would have had a chance of settling down into a harmless exploration of identity if it wasn’t for the fact that organisations, the law, and legally protected provisions have been reframed around it. But what is for the majority of young people, harmless experimentation, is being taken entirely seriously across the infrastructure of society, so these young people haven’t a chance. Seeing the pictures yesterday of the non binary ‘no nipple’ mastectomies, basically just mutilation, and I am so horrified at how society has let emotionally vulnerable young people down.

ah, and our visitor thinks people with disorders of sexual development are actually in some way 'between the sexes'

I call hoax

Like I said, even hormone therapy can change some of the components that make up biological sex

It's about which gametes your reproductive system is organised to produce. So no. Taking oestrogen doesn't make you suddenly grow ovaries.

Other people who have experience of GnRH agonists are women undergoing fertility treatment, where Lupron is often used as a short-term treatment.

Here's what is said there .

extract

"The side effect percentages listed below refer to research done specifically on Lupron when taken for several weeks. [Italics mine]

Common side effects of Lupron include:

Hot flashes (70 to 80%)
Headaches (25 to 32%)
Mood swings and depression (10 to 22%)
Vaginal dryness and irritation (11 to 28%)
Acne (10%)
General body aches (8 to 19%)
Nausea (8 to 13%)
Joint pain (7 to 8%)
Edema (5 to 7%)
Nervousness (4 to 6%)
General upset stomach (3 to 7%)
Weight gain (3 to 13%)
Decreased libido (2 to 11%)
Dizziness (2 to 11%)
Tingling (“pins and needles”) in the arms and legs (1 to 7%)
Breast tenderness (2 to 6%)"

Continues: www.verywellfamily.com/side-effects-of-gnrh-agonists-1959876

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Like I said, even hormone therapy can change some of the components that make up biological sex

It's about which gametes your reproductive system is organised to produce. So no. Taking oestrogen doesn't make you suddenly grow ovaries.

Define "organized to produce". What if we reorganized it?

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

ah, and our visitor thinks people with disorders of sexual development are actually in some way 'between the sexes'

I call hoax

Where did I say that?

What if we reorganized it?
It Is Not Possible. Fantasise all you want, it is not possible.
Shame for you that it's so hard to accept.

I think you'll struggle to find one single trans person who believes biological sex can be changed, that's not the sentiment behind TWAW. It's easy to misinterpret and not all TW are fans of it for the very reason that it is misinterpreted.

[quote HexedBoogie]@Itsinthetreesitscoming
"I think you're having us on - you can't really believe it's possible to change your DNA to become the opposite sex?

The DNA of a trans woman or trans man will still show their biological sex of male and female respectively"

Which part of DNA makes one a man or a woman?

Challenge mode: Try not to exclude a decent chunk of intersex women in your definition (Impossible)[/quote]
You do realise that almost all DSD can happen only to one biological sex?

Embarrassing that on this thread about 10-11 year olds recognising their biological sex, someone decides to come along and pretend that this is what TRAs wanted l along, then that biological sex can be changed.
Two little children understand it better than genderists.

@HexedBoogie

Do you believe that women with PCOS (with accompanying high testosterone levels) are less of a woman than the ones without it?

Go here to learn even more about horrific lupron side-effects.
www.lupronvictimshub.com/

Don’t engage in the derailing, let’s bring it back to the OP’s post.

@GeorgeMichaelBluth

Embarrassing that on this thread about 10-11 year olds recognising their biological sex, someone decides to come along and pretend that this is what TRAs wanted l along, then that biological sex can be changed. Two little children understand it better than genderists.

It literally is, we've been telling you all along we should allow kids to dress AND IDENTIFY however they want.

This is what we have always been referring to as social transition: Just a matter of outfits, names, and pronouns.

Define "organized to produce". What if we reorganized it?

How? Without ovaries, it's not possible to produce ova.

[quote IAmNotAClownfish]@HexedBoogie

Do you believe that women with PCOS (with accompanying high testosterone levels) are less of a woman than the ones without it?[/quote]
Nope, neither do I think a woman with XY chromosomes is any less of a woman.

Yes, you're right Areyouseriousrightnow

Stop it, Hexed. Do you imagine you have an ounce of credibility left after calling someone who tells you a person's dna cannot be changed a flat earther?

neither do I think a woman with XY chromosomes is any less of a woman

hoo boy

yep, person born with a penis, totally a woman

get away with you

@TheFairPrincess

I think you'll struggle to find one single trans person who believes biological sex can be changed, that's not the sentiment behind TWAW. It's easy to misinterpret and not all TW are fans of it for the very reason that it is misinterpreted.

Biological sex can be altered more so than fully "switched", but yeah, the notion that trans identity itself is literally "changing sex" is largely a GC misinterpretation.

We can certainly alter some characteristics of a human body. So remove organs, reduce or increase testosterone etc.

Unfortunately that is just really fiddling. The classic recognition is that a future archeologist who uncovers the bones of say, someone who identified as a trans-woman, is going to always identify them as a male-sexed individual from times past, based on characteristics of their sex-hip size, bone density, height, a missing rib...Go further and surviving bone marrow will reveal the chromosomes - XY.

Forensic Science - Determining Sex From Bones

We can certainly tinker, and gender, being a social construct, is certainly something we can change. We can tinker with outward presentation of gender, but sex though is immutable. It cannot be altered.

I accept though that a belief in magic allows for the idea that sex can be altered, but human medical science isn't yet capable of altering sex, let alone changing a human from one sex to another.

And in my view, experimenting with gender does not make you "trans". I've been gender non-conforming since childhood and I'm very happy as a woman thanks very much. Gender is not a binary - everyone experiments and has a combination of what are viewed as masculine and feminine elements in their gender expression and personality. There are also many activities that are not seen as either masculine or feminine and people do them too - like for example writing, drawing, gardening. So of course Ki thionk everyone should be able to experiment and live as they like.

What is not OK - and is also regressive and sexist - is that tending towards masculine-stereotyped interests or style makes you a boy if you are in fact a girl.

Yes, exactly.