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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I found this slightly reassuring - re girls IDing as boys

851 replies

QueenPeary · 21/08/2021 13:36

Until recently despite engaging in the gender debate a lot and having a VERY full-on TRA family member, I hadn't had much direct experience of trans-IDing children.

But recently 2 of my DD's female classmates (year 6), one a close friend, have started IDing as boys, have boys names etc and this is being embraced by the school. My DD knows my GC views and we discuss it, but I have agreed to be respectful in using the right names etc (though I avoid using he pronouns).

Anyway - what I found reassuring is that both have discussed it with my DD and said they know they are not actually boys, and are not interested in taking drugs or having a penis. So despite the school being captured and going along with the full TWAW/TMAM etc, the kids (sometimes) aren't. They seem to realise it's an identity to try on, akin to a fashion or music tribe, and so maybe - I hope - there's a way in which girls (and maybe boys too) can go through this without it having to involve the long-term risks to their health.

I still don't think they are a "he" and I don't think it's going down a very healthy or feminist path to ID as a boy instead of just being a girl of whatever type you want to be. But I am kind of heartened that maybe this trend could default back to something more akin to good old 80s "gender bending" and away from the idea of actually changing sex.

Of course many kids still are at risk of both harmful medicalisation and anti-science ideology and I'm not minimising that – but wondered what people thought.

OP posts:
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HexedBoogie · 21/08/2021 15:03

@GreyhoundG1rl

Stop it, Hexed. Do you imagine you have an ounce of credibility left after calling someone who tells you a person's dna cannot be changed a flat earther?
Which part of DNA defines one's sex? I don't believe I have received the answer to that one.
CorvusPurpureus · 21/08/2021 15:03

@TheFairPrincess

I think you'll struggle to find one single trans person who believes biological sex can be changed, that's not the sentiment behind TWAW. It's easy to misinterpret and not all TW are fans of it for the very reason that it is misinterpreted.
Well, whilst I don't know how the PP identifies, we've got a live poster on the thread confidently asserting that biological sex can be changed.

Whether that belief is genuinely held by HexedBogie is open to interpretation, of course.

pickingdaisies · 21/08/2021 15:03

Bingo! There's the Intersex card played, that's got to be a full house. Anyone been keeping count?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/08/2021 15:04

I accept though that a belief in magic allows for the idea that sex can be altered, but human medical science isn't yet capable of altering sex, let alone changing a human from one sex to another.

Transgender ideology is a good example of magical thinking:

https://www.britannica.com/science/magical-thinking

CorvusPurpureus · 21/08/2021 15:04

We haven't had clownfish or Viking warriors yet, to be fair.

HexedBoogie · 21/08/2021 15:06

@pickingdaisies

Bingo! There's the Intersex card played, that's got to be a full house. Anyone been keeping count?
It's funny how you have no counter against it so you just call it a "card" and give yourself a permission to ignore the glaring hole in your definition of sex.
BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 21/08/2021 15:06

Biological sex can be altered

altered to what? Confused

we do all accept that humans have 2 sexes right?

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 21/08/2021 15:07

It's funny how you have no counter against it so you just call it a "card" and give yourself a permission to ignore the glaring hole in your definition of sex

people with DSDs are still male or female

please stop dehumanising them by implying otherwise

Jaysmith71 · 21/08/2021 15:08

The Y Chromasome is generally a dead giveaway. There's no getting rid of it if you've got it, and no getting it if you aint.

HexedBoogie · 21/08/2021 15:08

@Ereshkigalangcleg

And in my view, experimenting with gender does not make you "trans". I've been gender non-conforming since childhood and I'm very happy as a woman thanks very much. Gender is not a binary - everyone experiments and has a combination of what are viewed as masculine and feminine elements in their gender expression and personality. There are also many activities that are not seen as either masculine or feminine and people do them too - like for example writing, drawing, gardening. So of course Ki thionk everyone should be able to experiment and live as they like.

What is not OK - and is also regressive and sexist - is that tending towards masculine-stereotyped interests or style makes you a boy if you are in fact a girl.

Yes, exactly.

"Experiment with gender, but not in a way I don't like, don't you fucking dare reject the gender labels I'm forcing on you in favor of the ones you want."
Mummyoflittledragon · 21/08/2021 15:08

Which components of biological sex can puberty blockers and cross sex hormones alter @HexedBoogie?

IAmNotAClownfish · 21/08/2021 15:08

So you say that altering hormones alters sex, but as a woman with high testosterone, I'm still a woman? But if I believed I was a man and raised my testosterone, I'd be a man?

How does that work? Hormones only alter sex when the person really wants it to?

GreyhoundG1rl · 21/08/2021 15:09

You argue at the level of an arsey 12 year old, Hexed. Bless.

HexedBoogie · 21/08/2021 15:09

@Jaysmith71

The Y Chromasome is generally a dead giveaway. There's no getting rid of it if you've got it, and no getting it if you aint.
In their efforts to sort intersex people into a rigid male-female binary, your own "scholars" acknowledge that there are females with XY chromosomes.

twitter.com/zaelefty/status/1365736494611193863

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 21/08/2021 15:10

I am reminded of a poster.

I found this slightly reassuring - re girls IDing as boys
BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 21/08/2021 15:12

"Experiment with gender, but not in a way I don't like, don't you fucking dare reject the gender labels I'm forcing on you in favor of the ones you want."

crikey o'reilly

saying

'you have the kind of body that can grow a baby inside it'

'you don't have that kind of body'

is nothing to do with gender. it's just noting a person's sex

you loony

HexedBoogie · 21/08/2021 15:13

@IAmNotAClownfish

So you say that altering hormones alters sex, but as a woman with high testosterone, I'm still a woman? But if I believed I was a man and raised my testosterone, I'd be a man?

How does that work? Hormones only alter sex when the person really wants it to?

Chromosomes alter biological sex, but they do not define gender identity.

"Man" and "woman" are gender identities, and hormone levels have no bearing on one's identity.

You wouldn't need to raise your testosterone to live as a man, although you could if you wanted to, and if you wanted to increase the odds of society recognizing you as one.

Jaysmith71 · 21/08/2021 15:14

Now did you spot the 'generally' in that?

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 21/08/2021 15:14

"Man" and "woman" are gender identities

no they're not

they're sexes

I see the problem now. you don't understand words

HexedBoogie · 21/08/2021 15:15

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

"Experiment with gender, but not in a way I don't like, don't you fucking dare reject the gender labels I'm forcing on you in favor of the ones you want."

crikey o'reilly

saying

'you have the kind of body that can grow a baby inside it'

'you don't have that kind of body'

is nothing to do with gender. it's just noting a person's sex

you loony

I have no issue with acknowledging whether or not someone has the kind of body that can grow a baby.

I have plenty issue with saying kids need to be "boys" or "girls" on that basis.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 21/08/2021 15:17

I have plenty issue with saying kids need to be "boys" or "girls" on that basis.

well then, no one will understand what the fuck you're talking about

GreyhoundG1rl · 21/08/2021 15:18

I have no issue with acknowledging whether or not someone has the kind of body that can grow a baby.

I have plenty issue with saying kids need to be "boys" or "girls" on that basis.

Because to get pregnant and give birth requires that you are an Adult (usually) Human (not always) Female (every single fucking time).
Except for maybe Seahorses, which changes nothing.

IAmNotAClownfish · 21/08/2021 15:18

Now you're changing the subject to talk about gender identity, whereas before you said

Hormone therapy alters biological sex.

So in that case, surely if a woman has a naturally higher level of testosterone, they must be more of a man using your logic?

HexedBoogie · 21/08/2021 15:18

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

"Man" and "woman" are gender identities

no they're not

they're sexes

I see the problem now. you don't understand words

No, they're not sexes, they're gender identities built around sex.

We can go back and forth about this, and you can keep ignoring basic sociology but it's clear that this will not get us anywhere for as long as you keep conflating gender identities with sex.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 21/08/2021 15:19

basic sociology

ah basic sociology

so much more important than basic biology

you're going to look back on this phase and cringe you know