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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I found this slightly reassuring - re girls IDing as boys

851 replies

QueenPeary · 21/08/2021 13:36

Until recently despite engaging in the gender debate a lot and having a VERY full-on TRA family member, I hadn't had much direct experience of trans-IDing children.

But recently 2 of my DD's female classmates (year 6), one a close friend, have started IDing as boys, have boys names etc and this is being embraced by the school. My DD knows my GC views and we discuss it, but I have agreed to be respectful in using the right names etc (though I avoid using he pronouns).

Anyway - what I found reassuring is that both have discussed it with my DD and said they know they are not actually boys, and are not interested in taking drugs or having a penis. So despite the school being captured and going along with the full TWAW/TMAM etc, the kids (sometimes) aren't. They seem to realise it's an identity to try on, akin to a fashion or music tribe, and so maybe - I hope - there's a way in which girls (and maybe boys too) can go through this without it having to involve the long-term risks to their health.

I still don't think they are a "he" and I don't think it's going down a very healthy or feminist path to ID as a boy instead of just being a girl of whatever type you want to be. But I am kind of heartened that maybe this trend could default back to something more akin to good old 80s "gender bending" and away from the idea of actually changing sex.

Of course many kids still are at risk of both harmful medicalisation and anti-science ideology and I'm not minimising that – but wondered what people thought.

OP posts:
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Blibbyblobby · 21/08/2021 14:32

@HexedBoogie

We've been trying to tell you this all along: that kids should be free to experiment with gender, and that there's no harm whatsoever with letting them use the label and pronouns they want.
kids should be free to experiment with gender

That depends on what you mean by gender. Kids, and indeed adults, should certainly be free to experiment with clothes, social roles, character traits, interests and so on that have been socially coded as belonging to just one sex.

Kids should not be being told that people have innate mental gender identities that mean something intrinsic about them is different to people with a different gender identity, or that they need to medically modify their bodies to match social expectations of gender.

there's no harm whatsoever with letting them use the label and pronouns they want

That would be true these so-called "labels" were, as your statement implies, just labels like changing your name or deciding to be a goth but they are not, they are keys to specific, originally sex-based provisions like sport, single sex spaces, anti-discrimination initiatives and rights and so on. So when genderists talk about giving people the right to change their "label", they really mean really giving them the right to appropriate everything set up for the opposite sex.

It's not the loosening and dismantling of sex-based stereotypes I take issue with, it's the sleight of hand by which trans ideology asserts that gender is a different thing to sex but in practice wants gender to replace sex without considering whether stuff that was set up to be single sex is the right setup if you switch it to single gender (or indeed, if you take stuff that already existed as single-sex out of the equation, what are the from-first-principles reasons that anything needs to be single gender in the first place?)

And the corollary is that the only reason I don't support the demands for so-called trans "rights" in their current incarnation is because it doesn't in fact address the need to separate gender and sex, it just tries to overwrite sex with gender while keeping everything else the same, to the detriment of female people regardless of their gender.

HexedBoogie · 21/08/2021 14:32

@Artichokeleaves

Hormones do not alter biological sex.

The person remains that sex. From conception to the last trace of DNA. Cosmetic alterations are not a change in sex. This is fact.

It is not, it's actually literally just your opinion that this is what sex is.
WhatsAppening · 21/08/2021 14:32

I think HexedBoogie is either very very young or taking the piss.

Because I’m struggling to believe anyone is this stupid.

secular111 · 21/08/2021 14:32

Biological sex can be altered, and if that's what a kid needs to be happy, they should not be locked out of developing the kind of body they want.

How can biological sex be altered? Human medical science doesn't presently provide for that. Each native cell in my body contains XX chromosomes. There is presently no means to enable a human male to switch from XY chromosomes to XX. Male-sexed humans cannot produce ova (female reproductive cell gametes) and have no means to do so.

Exterior surgical changes can be made, but they don't change sex, unless those claiming sex is simply a fixation on genitals are believed.

Or did you mean Biological sex can be altered in the future?

The Scottish writer Iain Banks, writing as Iain M. Banks wrote science fiction stories revolving around 'The Culture' which possessed the necessary medical technologies to switch its citizens from one sex to another. We aren't there yet and likely it will take some major breakthroughs to achieve it. That's why no scientist or team has won a Nobel Prize for Science for inventing a process to alter biological sex. 'Cos it can't presently be achieved.

The 'workaround' in th UK is called the GRA (Gender Recognition Act) 2004 which allows a birth certificate to be changed to another sex - a legal fiction, but not one actually based in science; as no human being can change their sex.

As is often pointed-out, Clownfish can change sex, though they are actually a species that are protandrous hermaphrodites.

Humans aren't Clownfish though.

Artichokeleaves · 21/08/2021 14:33

It is fact. I'm sorry but it is.

A male body that has taken hormones is a male body that has taken hormones. It does not stop being male, ever. Until technology exists that can change every cell in the body and remake that body wholly from scratch that will not be possible.

I get that you believe differently, but that doesn't change the facts.

GreyhoundG1rl · 21/08/2021 14:33

The definition of sex is open to opinion Grin
Course it is.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 21/08/2021 14:34

Looked at as biology, which is all it is, sex is all about reproductive function. Whether an individual chooses to reproduce or not, whether an individual can reproduce or not, her/his sex remains the same, coded into every cell of the body except the gametes she/he might pass on to the next generation. No amount of hormones or surgery can convert a female reproductive system to a male one, or vice versa.

HexedBoogie · 21/08/2021 14:35

@OldTurtleNewShell

We've been trying to tell you this all along: that kids should be free to experiment with gender, and that there's no harm whatsoever with letting them use the label and pronouns they want.

Errrr no, I think you'll find it's GC people that have been doing that! Nice bit of gaslighting there!

If you genuinely think this is true, then I strongly suggest listening to what we are actually saying. You might be pleasantly surprised.

The OP herself said she's opposed to allowing "girls" to self-identify as boys or use "he" pronouns.

The gaslighting is all on the GC's side.

Artichokeleaves · 21/08/2021 14:35

It is not, it's actually literally just your opinion that this is what sex is

While you wander in extreme metaphysics and whether anything exists outside of anyone's mind, I'll stick to actual reality thanks.

HexedBoogie · 21/08/2021 14:37

@Artichokeleaves

It is not, it's actually literally just your opinion that this is what sex is

While you wander in extreme metaphysics and whether anything exists outside of anyone's mind, I'll stick to actual reality thanks.

Your personal interpretation of reality is not reality itself.
Abhannmor · 21/08/2021 14:37

Biological sex cannot be altered . Puberty blockers and cross sex hormones can cause long lasting problems. Surgery is irreversible and pointless given biological sex is immutable. I think, as others have suggested, non binary and other gender expressions are the new Emo.

GreyhoundG1rl · 21/08/2021 14:38

Some people's actual literal opinion is that the earth is flat.
This does not make their opinion actual literal fact.

Facts are not altered by opinions, not one whit.

Itsinthetreesitscoming · 21/08/2021 14:38

@WhatsAppening

I think HexedBoogie is either very very young or taking the piss.

Because I’m struggling to believe anyone is this stupid.

Yes, me too! Come on Hexed, I think you're having us on - you can't really believe it's possible to change your DNA to become the opposite sex?

The DNA of a trans woman or trans man will still show their biological sex of male and female respectively, regardless of what hormones they have taken or surgery they have had

HexedBoogie · 21/08/2021 14:39

@Abhannmor

Biological sex cannot be altered . Puberty blockers and cross sex hormones can cause long lasting problems. Surgery is irreversible and pointless given biological sex is immutable. I think, as others have suggested, non binary and other gender expressions are the new Emo.
Why do you care? Why are you so desperate to control and restrict other people's lives? Why can't we let people change their bodies and identities the way they want?
Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/08/2021 14:39

Hexed doesn't appear to believe biological sex is a thing which exists.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/08/2021 14:40

Why can't we let people change their bodies and identities the way they want?

Because people's right to swing their arms ends right where my nose begins.

HexedBoogie · 21/08/2021 14:40

@GreyhoundG1rl

Some people's actual literal opinion is that the earth is flat. This does not make their opinion actual literal fact. Facts are not altered by opinions, not one whit.
Well guess what, you're the flat earthers in this scenario, because the scientific consensus firmly disagrees with your simplistic understanding of sex and gender.
HexedBoogie · 21/08/2021 14:41

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Hexed doesn't appear to believe biological sex is a thing which exists.
It is a thing that exist, and it's also a thing that's malleable.
Artichokeleaves · 21/08/2021 14:41

Your personal interpretation of reality is not reality itself.

We're into the realms of if a tree falls in a forest and no one hears it is there actually a sound.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/08/2021 14:41

We're really not the flat earthers here. But you appear to have projected a straw feminist that bears no resemblance to what we believe.

Itsinthetreesitscoming · 21/08/2021 14:42

Hexed, can you explain how it's possible to change your biological sex?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/08/2021 14:42

It's not malleable. It's immutable.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 21/08/2021 14:44

blimey, who ordered the delivery of stupid?

how do these people think babies are made?

HexedBoogie · 21/08/2021 14:44

@Itsinthetreesitscoming

Hexed, can you explain how it's possible to change your biological sex?
Like I said, even hormone therapy can change some of the components that make up biological sex

We can't make a "full switch" or whatever yet, but we absolutely can alter sex.

GreyhoundG1rl · 21/08/2021 14:44

Scientific consensus, eh? Silly me, with my Neanderthal opinions.

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