Women's Rights Demo, Scottish Parliament 11am 2nd Sept

[Scout2016]

Can't see this elsewhere, apologies if I'm duplicating. I'll stick it on the Scottish action thread too.
Is anyone off here going, or involved?

@Helleofabore

Rhannion

No definitely not! But my friend got hit on the head with a board by one of their crowd !

I hope it was not deliberate and it didn’t hurt.

Oh it was definitely deliberate, she tried to bash her again, but one of the other woman grabbed the board and we got my friend away from it, she was upset and angry.

Bloody hell. I do hope she is ok.

I despair that so many people continue to enable this behaviour.

@CatherinaJTV

I had a look through some twitter threads and the fact that at least two Tories were allowed to cosy up to y'all and claim "pro women" credentials when they have been systematically making the lives of women worse (think rape clause, all the cuts that increase poverty, poverty of mothers, make women more dependent on partners etc) is sickening.

Bless. Do you think that trans rights campaigners are shunning Conservative politicians when lobbying politicians to further their aims? Do you think they're shunning Conservative politicians when they support their aims? Or do you think they might just cozy up to anyone who can help them?

You've got to be terribly forgetful, or woefully uninformed, or maybe just naive to think that they are not talking to Conservatives if they're willing to listen.

For Women Scotland are not party political. They are women's rights campaigners. And from my perspective talking to people who supported the Rape Clause about the needs of survivors and their trauma, is what is needed to get that policy overturned anyway. So Conservatives taking an interest in women's rights because they see this as a way to annoy the SNP? Well, that gives me an opportunity to talk to people who might never have taken an interest in women's rights before. And I tend not to walk away from these encounters having learned nothing at all.

There's also the fact that identity politics, that brands people as evil on the basis of their political opinions is unhelpful. It's unhealthy to dehumanise your opposition and it most definitely will not help you in winning over people and changing their minds.

I've seen that go down really badly in a hustings before - audience generally well disposed towards one young candidate and he branded the incumbent as evil in front of an audience largely opposed to the incumbent. Big mistake. Audible intake of breath. Engaging in kindergarten politics is a sure fire way to turn people against you. As happened that day.

And honestly, flinging guilt by association at us here on Mumsnet, when we know the other side is unconcerned about who they lobby and work with as long as they get their aims through.... Do better.

Oh it was definitely deliberate, she tried to bash her again, but one of the other woman grabbed the board and we got my friend away from it, she was upset and angry.

But, but, but both sides???? Yeah, right.

The violence is all one way and it is coming from the TRAs and their submissive, craven acolytes.

Love the story of the megaphone batteries. When it comes to picking sides, would you rather be on the side that hits people with boards, or the side that hands the batteries back?

Ohhhhhh is that what they were saying?! None of us from a distance had a clue what was being shouted. Everyone around me that I asked looked baffled. It sounded like dog barks - woof woof woof woof woof. Someone said maybe they are trying to mock and disrupt our demo by making dog noises and we all nodded with serious faces haha. 🙈

That's all it sounded like to me, too. I didn't think that it really was barking but just thought, wow, what a rubbish megaphone is that!

Could not hear one single word that came out of it.

Generally speaking, I've been told by seasoned campaigners that it's best to leave the protesters be. They have every right to express their opinions and as long as they don't get aggressive (which has happened various times before) or try to intimidate attendees (also happened before), it's not worth getting het up about them. There's always security though. Just in case.

The counter protest must have been disappointing in terms of numbers - the number of women's rights protesters tripled since the last demo on 7 March 2020 and I think the counter protest was smaller this time. And the response from buses and cars was different too - lots of people cheering us all on.

Oh it was definitely deliberate, she tried to bash her again, but one of the other woman grabbed the board and we got my friend away from it, she was upset and angry.

That's just unhinged. None of us have ever done anything remotely like that. FFS, the first event I ever went to, the night was so so cold, the organisers asked the protesters to come in and get a cup of tea and then hear what we were actually saying, but no. They preferred staying in the cold and then screaming insults at us.

I hope your friend is okay!

Absolutely, as long as there's no aggression and intimidation from them, I don't care about counter protestors. We did an amazing job cheering at the demo. I've been on several types of protests and marches over the years. This was the best one. I've just watched Caroline McAllister's speech again. Such passion from us all. We women have definitely had enough of all this bullshit.

And the response from buses and cars was different too - lots of people cheering us all on.

This, for me, was one of the best things about the day.

From our vantage point on the wall we got a good view of the vehicles and could see the folk inside waving and smiling as well as the horn tooting - it made me feel quite emotional.

Here's a YouTube link to the speeches made.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I had a look through some twitter threads and the fact that at least two Tories were allowed to cosy up to y'all and claim "pro women" credentials when they have been systematically making the lives of women worse (think rape clause, all the cuts that increase poverty, poverty of mothers, make women more dependent on partners etc) is sickening.

You might like to talk to the TRAs about Sue Pascoe and Tara Hewitt, as well as Crispin Blunt, Caroline Nokes and Maria Miller.

Well, quite.

Thanks for the link - these women and speeches are so inspirational!

@merrymouse

CatherinaJTV you haven’t answered the question. Do you condemn anyone who talks to Conservative politicians, including those lobbying for self ID?

sorry, hadn't seen that. I think it is telling that you let anti-feminists whose brutal policies have made women's lives so much harder over the past 10 years use you as a backdrop to claim feminist credentials. Of course, Conservative politicians need to be spoken to. I would suggest something like: "Hi, nice to see you are interested in this one issue that we are passionate about. Unfortunately, your policies overall are anti-women and I must ask you to leave."

The GRA reform bill in Scotland was not brought forward by Scot Tories afaik?

To add: none of these Tories support self-ID, to my knowledge.

I would suggest something like: "Hi, nice to see you are interested in this one issue that we are passionate about. Unfortunately, your policies overall are anti-women and I must ask you to leave."

You really have a blind spot don’t you?

So, will you do the same with the SNP, labour and the Greens? I guess there may be some independent MPs you could talk to if you check their voting records thoroughly.

And your approach really is short sighted in style and certainly doesn’t reflect real life where discussion with all sorts of people can create real positive change for the future that would not be possible without those discussions. You are advocating for echo chambers.

Ah, disappointed to see you’ve dodged my question again, Catherina.

I’ll have one last go.

Cast your mind back to 2018, in England and Wales, when the Government Equalities Office launched a consultation on the Gender Recognition Act. This was an action taken by a conservative government, and IIRC it was spearheaded by Amber Rudd (a Tory). Your position is that it is unethical to work with Conservatives, because of their destructive policies that wreak havoc on women’s lives. Presumably, for this reason, you would have opposed the reform of the Gender Recognition act because it was conceived, sponsored and brought to life by a Tory Government.

Yes, or no?

I would suggest something like: "Hi, nice to see you are interested in this one issue that we are passionate about. Unfortunately, your policies overall are anti-women and I must ask you to leave.

This can't be a serious question, surely. You are saying that the women protesting outside the Scottish Parliament on the 2nd should have asked the Tory MSP's to move away from standing outside their own workplace? When all elected representatives were invited to join the protest and they were the only ones to bother to come out? Outside the Parliament where anyone can stand? Where counter protesters were also stating their views (as is their right)?

And presumably you would extend this to the Scottish Green Party who en masse voted against rape survivors being able to request a female examiner? You can't really get a more anti woman policy.

And again, you are still avoiding Sophocles' question. Yes or no?

I think perhaps we should ignore people who are scraping the barrel trying to find something negative to say. Surely they can't seriously think that you do politics by only talking to a little bubble of people who already agree with you.
Though I guess it does keep bumping the thread so people can read about how brilliant, peaceful and well supported the event was so meh, as you were.

thirdfiddle

Some of the most informative threads come about from those posters who seek only to shame women seeking to strengthen women’s sex based rights and children’s rights.

I would suggest something like: "Hi, nice to see you are interested in this one issue that we are passionate about. Unfortunately, your policies overall are anti-women and I must ask you to leave.

This is the problem with purity politics. Politics is a messy business, no parties are perfect, in fact, most are barely competent or remotely ethical. But it's the system we have.

You can ask everyone you disagree with on multiple occasions to leave, and get nothing done at all, or you can pull together to support or stop one policy then regroup for the next.

And the response from buses and cars was different too - lots of people cheering us all on.

This, for me, was one of the best things about the day.

From our vantage point on the wall we got a good view of the vehicles and could see the folk inside waving and smiling as well as the horn tooting - it made me feel quite emotional.

That's so good to hear!

Was a great day. Was nice to meet many new faces and see familiar ones too.

I completely understand why Catherina doesn’t want to answer my question, because I’ve put Catherina in an impossible situation. One caused by hypocrisy.

What would be great would be if such posters could agree to stop castigating feminists for the entirely normal practice of working with people across the political spectrum, just as trans allies always have. That would be constructive and mature.

Or, don’t, because honestly, the more that people see the double standards and playground political point scoring, the happier I am, so it’s no skin off my nose.

And there’s another bounce for the thread so we can all enjoy the posts about a great protest one more time

And there’s another bounce for the thread so we can all enjoy the posts about a great protest one more time

It was bloody great Sophocles, was a brilliant way to spend a Thursday morning!

@Sophoclesthefox

I completely understand why Catherina doesn’t want to answer my question, because I’ve put Catherina in an impossible situation. One caused by hypocrisy.

What would be great would be if such posters could agree to stop castigating feminists for the entirely normal practice of working with people across the political spectrum, just as trans allies always have. That would be constructive and mature.

Or, don’t, because honestly, the more that people see the double standards and playground political point scoring, the happier I am, so it’s no skin off my nose.

And there’s another bounce for the thread so we can all enjoy the posts about a great protest one more time

The thing that the guilt-by-association accusers do not understand is that many of us have arrived at a point where we view the threat the doctrine of gender identity poses to our rights as existential. Freedoms to believe, think, say, associate with and attend - of conscience, thought, belief, expression, association and assembly. The freedom from state-mandated beliefs, from having stereotypes imposed on my children, from being abused for my need for female-only provisions, from being discriminated against. The staggering amount of things we're losing, and as a consequence women and girls I know, and many more beyond them, are being harmed.

So, I don't give a single shiny shit anymore about being condemned for working with Conservatives. And I say that as a lifelong leftie and Green Party voter. From the very first democratic elections held in my country, I voted for the Green Party all the way until they decided the word woman is offensive and their motions on FGM could not refer to who that atrocity happens to - women and girls.

And I no longer care about right or left wing, about being thought of as unkind because I choose to be kind to vulnerable women and girls, about being thought of as exclusionary because I object to including males in female-only provisions because doing so excludes, always, some of the most vulnerable or marginalised women and girls.

Not one fuck left to give. Call me transphobic, radical, bigoted, prejudiced, ugly and old, I do not care anymore. Knock yourself out, hurl insults on here - I've had them screamed in my face by (almost always male) trans rights activists in real life. And even though it scared me badly, it didn't stop me either. It just made me mad. And women's anger is a powerful force in this world.

I mean I like to ask the question, because I am extremely logical (I have, apparently, an extremely male brain, coz women cannot be rational, can we?) and I enjoy sparring on the illogicalities of the things that adherents to the doctrine of gender identity believe and say, but I don't do it because it bugs me to be called names.

Their opinion and their condemnation mean nothing to me because the pain and suffering of women and girls mean nothing to them. And why on earth would I feel the need to be thought of well by someone like that?