Utterly confused?!

[katemuff]

My friends DD13 has 'come out' as trans and is describing herself as a demi-girl, non binary, and has daily changing pro nouns that are impossible to keep up with as far as I can tell. She was she, then they, then just her name now they again, I think. Today they ran out of a cafe screaming and crying because a very elderly Italian man said "Buon appetito bella".
They are very feminine in appearance and when I politely and gently asked I was told that as they didn't like make up, shopping, watch love island etc then she was more masculine and a demi-girl.
Now I am sorry if this sounds offensive, really, I am so confused. I work with looked after children and victims of grooming and exploitation and started to wonder if these gender identities have become a way in which privileged people are able to elicit sympathy. Is this not just a phase that a very privileged girl is going through? Am I missing something?
The children I work with would be suspended or expelled for much of what my friends DD has been up to which include screaming at teachers for being transphobic when they are delivering lessons on an almost daily basis she also physically attacked a boy in her year with ASD (badly scratching his face) who used the wrong pro noun, there have been a lot of incidents which she details on social media and gets hundreds of validating comments - many from adults!
Does anyone have any thoughts on this? My friend is very concerned but any attempts to settle it all down have been reported to her support worker at school as transphobic. I do not know what to make of it all, I was tempted to tell her what some of my clients have experienced and ask her if she still feels oppressed but resisted!
Sorry if this offends anyone, I am just going over it all in my head and would appreciate some sensible opinions!
Thank you

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head - the dd needs to have the internet access surgically removed and some good firm discipline. Screaming at adults, attacking other children? I’m amazed she’s not been suspended from school.

I'd be ditching the friend, tbh.

I wonder who has told her that because she doesn’t like all stereotypical girl things, she’s only half a girl. Could be school ot social media, but seems to all be validated by her parents. It’s not their fault entirely- they’re all following the recommended action.

I imagine she’s very confused and overly absorbed in her own gender identity now. As it’s all being affirmed by those she trusts, it’s not surprising she has come to believe that being called she/her/bella is now an attack.

Her parents aren't validating it but got a 'telling off' from a school therapist so are worried about telling her to stop being so ridiculous - her DMs exact words when she discussed it after a few glasses of wine.

Ok, I’m going to get flamed, but here it is. I’m nonbinary, assigned female at birth. I often appear female as my bodytype doesn’t leave much choice.
Figuring out who you are in a world that insists you have to be something else is hard. Of course her behaviour is unacceptable, but belittling her confusion won’t help. And its not a race to the bottom, there is always somebody who has it worse. Doesn’t mean that you have to be ok.
So - deal with her behavior, but accept her needing to find an identity. It might be nonbinary, it might be not. But that is for her to find out, not for others to define.

All of her school friendship group are trans btw - they are 5 middle class white girls but identify as 3 transboys, a demi girl and non binary. My friend is at the end of her tether but all the other parents seem supportive. Tricky situation.

The others children are not verbally abusive or aggressive as far as I have been told.

I'm going to need a diagram of how someone can be trans and a demi girl and non binary. How can someone be transgender if they also don't believe in binary gender? Sorry if that's a stupid question.

There are many commentators saying similar to you OP - things about teenagers having always wanted to ‘rebel’, push boundaries, be ‘different’ : is the ‘trans craze’ at least in some cases just another incarnation of this?

What would have been goths/emos or androgynous etc in previous generations?

Girls in particular have also always been susceptible to social contagion - see self harm and anorexia. Being trans can also be a social contagion.

Has you friend’s DD got friends who are identifying as ....

My DS says all the girls in his class say they are NB, lesbian and anything rainbow is the go to accessory (pencil cases etc).

Nothing wrong with bring lesbian of course but statistically unlikely for there to be that many in one class, more likely to be social contagion/wanting to be like their friends/teenage experimentation.

@katemuff address their behaviour, not their identity. Their idendity is theirs to find. An idea: maybe the friends are not abusive because they don’t get called ridiculous?

@Itsanewdah

Ok, I’m going to get flamed, but here it is. I’m nonbinary, assigned female at birth. I often appear female as my bodytype doesn’t leave much choice. Figuring out who you are in a world that insists you have to be something else is hard. Of course her behaviour is unacceptable, but belittling her confusion won’t help. And its not a race to the bottom, there is always somebody who has it worse. Doesn’t mean that you have to be ok. So - deal with her behavior, but accept her needing to find an identity. It might be nonbinary, it might be not. But that is for her to find out, not for others to define.

No one wants to stop them finding their identity, but why are they allowed to attack another child for being unsure what pronoun to use when they haven't decided yet?

@katemuff

All of her school friendship group are trans btw - they are 5 middle class white girls but identify as 3 transboys, a demi girl and non binary. My friend is at the end of her tether but all the other parents seem supportive. Tricky situation.

The others children are not verbally abusive or aggressive as far as I have been told.

Sounds like it could well be social contagion to me. Unless they’ve changed friends and found each other after ‘coming out’?

@Leafstamp

There are many commentators saying similar to you OP - things about teenagers having always wanted to ‘rebel’, push boundaries, be ‘different’ : is the ‘trans craze’ at least in some cases just another incarnation of this?

What would have been goths/emos or androgynous etc in previous generations?

Girls in particular have also always been susceptible to social contagion - see self harm and anorexia. Being trans can also be a social contagion.

Has you friend’s DD got friends who are identifying as ....

My DS says all the girls in his class say they are NB, lesbian and anything rainbow is the go to accessory (pencil cases etc).

Nothing wrong with bring lesbian of course but statistically unlikely for there to be that many in one class, more likely to be social contagion/wanting to be like their friends/teenage experimentation.

The older DD is a lesbian and seems to be well adjusted and happy. She told me finds her siblings behaviour homophobic. I am saying very little, being kind and trying to understand. I don't see them often but my friend is obviously struggling with this.

@StepGarlic

I'm going to need a diagram of how someone can be trans and a demi girl and non binary. How can someone be transgender if they also don't believe in binary gender? Sorry if that's a stupid question.

Yes, it is confusing isn't it.

@Itsanewdah

Ok, I’m going to get flamed, but here it is. I’m nonbinary, assigned female at birth. I often appear female as my bodytype doesn’t leave much choice. Figuring out who you are in a world that insists you have to be something else is hard. Of course her behaviour is unacceptable, but belittling her confusion won’t help. And its not a race to the bottom, there is always somebody who has it worse. Doesn’t mean that you have to be ok. So - deal with her behavior, but accept her needing to find an identity. It might be nonbinary, it might be not. But that is for her to find out, not for others to define.

No one is assigned anything at birth. Their sex is observed and recorded. How you choose to present yourself to the world is entirely your choice. It has nothing to do with ones sex. Many people do not believe in gender ideology, just like many people do not believe in Christianity or Scientology.

To be honest the parents need to stop being so petrified of their DD. She can identify however she wants but the behaviour needs to be dealt with. Getting away with physically assaulting another pupil is appalling. They need to be putting some sanctions in place.

address their behaviour, not their identity. Their idendity is theirs to find.

Ideally, yes. But when someone's "identity" (whatever that means) is the basis for their behaviour, and their justification for making demands of others, it's hard to ignore.

But I do tend do agree. I do have one friend who once started calling herself nonbinary. I'm not sure if she still does to other people - but she knows I'm extremely uninterested. I just totally ignore her "identity", as you suggest. There's not a lot of point discussing something meaningless, and she knows I'm a gender atheist.

But then we're not in a position where she can start making identity-based demands. This is far more fraught in one of these places where people in authority think they have to be "affirming".

In particular, a child is going to be extremely tempted to wield an "identity" if they think it gives them power over those in authority.

@StepGarlic trans is an umbrella term that includes nonbinary. Nonbinary is also an umbrella term, demigirls are a subcategory (afab, but not fully identifying as female). A bit complicated at first

If someone declares his or herself as non binary what am I supposed to do with this information? Why is it important that other people know?

No one is assigned anything at birth. You're born with a sex which is identifiable at a cellular level.
Trans ideology is one of the biggest culprits in enforcing strict gender roles that would rather see children surgically mutilated before accepting that their sex doesn't need to define any aspect of their personality.

@Itsanewdah
So you find it acceptable to physically assault a child with additional support needs because they didn't refer to you by the correct collection of letters? The sense of entitlement is astonishing.

I’ll get flamed for this too, but I did have a smile to myself when someone said the old vegan joke was rather apt re non-binary people:

How do you know if someone is vegan?

Don’t worry, they’ll tell you.

@Soontobe60 you proof my point quite nicely. Most people are completely unaware how stressful it is to not conform. They just don’t get it. But you don’t need to get it to accept it. I’ll never understand how somebody can refer to themselves as “woman” (or “man”). Gender makes no sense to me (biological sex makes sense for medical reasons - my body is different to a male one, not much i can do about that). I can accept it though that other people have a sense of gender.

@Soontobe60

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head - the dd needs to have the internet access surgically removed and some good firm discipline. Screaming at adults, attacking other children? I’m amazed she’s not been suspended from school.

Noticeable that she/they/pronouns of choice physically assaulted the child with SEN, isn't it? Bet he was the one least likely to thump her one in self defence from the nasty, scratchy, stereotypical girl attack. Didn't attack the elderly man where there would be witnesses and a criminal record for assault either, just throwing histrionics also a stereotypical girl response.

Groups of kids can get into spirals of negative behaviour - eating issues, self harm, disruption, shoplifting, drinking, violence, anything you don't want kids to do, there will be a small friendship group that can end up continually raising the stakes to be the loudest, toughest, most unwell, thinnest, most needy, most controlling, stupidest... Your DD is not responsible for their wellbeing, is not required to agree with anything they say, does not have to go along with any of it and certainly should be supported to recognise toxic group and relationship dynamics and extricate herself from them without needing to say anything that could be interpreted as transphobia or being mean about them. They're just not as much fun anymore and attacking people could well be the limit, especially as she doesn't want to find herself sat in the police station waiting for you to get there because the others have attacked another easy target person who has unwittingly fallen foul of how they wish to be perceived.

They aren't the only five people in the year your DD can be friends with. It's very normal as kids get older to find different friends. And as she's at the end of her tether with them, some support in that, especially when they're back in school from her Head of Year, for example, could be just what she needs to join or form another group of friends with a healthier dynamic.

Ok, I’m going to get flamed, but here it is. I’m nonbinary, assigned female at birth. I often appear female as my bodytype doesn’t leave much choice.

You’re a female person who looks female because you are?

What, seriously, is the point of having a special term for what sounds to me like normal life?

[quote Itsanewdah]@StepGarlic trans is an umbrella term that includes nonbinary. Nonbinary is also an umbrella term, demigirls are a subcategory (afab, but not fully identifying as female). A bit complicated at first[/quote]
Thank you!

@Boogiethebeat i recommend reading my comments. Of course the behaviour is not ok, as stated by me. But belittling somebody isn’t going to help that. Adress the behaviour, not the identity.