Utterly confused?!

[katemuff]

My friends DD13 has 'come out' as trans and is describing herself as a demi-girl, non binary, and has daily changing pro nouns that are impossible to keep up with as far as I can tell. She was she, then they, then just her name now they again, I think. Today they ran out of a cafe screaming and crying because a very elderly Italian man said "Buon appetito bella".
They are very feminine in appearance and when I politely and gently asked I was told that as they didn't like make up, shopping, watch love island etc then she was more masculine and a demi-girl.
Now I am sorry if this sounds offensive, really, I am so confused. I work with looked after children and victims of grooming and exploitation and started to wonder if these gender identities have become a way in which privileged people are able to elicit sympathy. Is this not just a phase that a very privileged girl is going through? Am I missing something?
The children I work with would be suspended or expelled for much of what my friends DD has been up to which include screaming at teachers for being transphobic when they are delivering lessons on an almost daily basis she also physically attacked a boy in her year with ASD (badly scratching his face) who used the wrong pro noun, there have been a lot of incidents which she details on social media and gets hundreds of validating comments - many from adults!
Does anyone have any thoughts on this? My friend is very concerned but any attempts to settle it all down have been reported to her support worker at school as transphobic. I do not know what to make of it all, I was tempted to tell her what some of my clients have experienced and ask her if she still feels oppressed but resisted!
Sorry if this offends anyone, I am just going over it all in my head and would appreciate some sensible opinions!
Thank you

The school ‘therapist’ is part of the problem.

Such a fab take down by Magdalene!

Great links, GoodieMoomin. That MB vid is one of my favourites. So good.

Along the same lines, Germaine Greer:

twitter.com/Resilient_Vet/status/1425114000778539008

Female is real, and it's sex. Femininity is unreal, and it's gender. And it's a role you play.

And for that to become the given identity of women is a profoundly disabling notion.

Jeez, those stereotypes and expectations.
My mum was the only female child who did her a levels because society expected girls to not take them. What would have happened if she and others hadn't challenged that expectation for girls?

I was the only female in an IT company, the majority of my male coworkers kept assuming I was a secretary. I challenged all their expectations and showed being a woman did not mean I could not code. Even though one guy said I coded 'like a girl', whatever that meant.

I kept working after my kids were born, challenging society's expectations mothers didn't work. Which was often still the case in my days. What if I and others hadn't challenged that expectation?

Women need strong women who will challenge the status quo to improve the situation for women and girls all over the world. Not tell them the only way they can get out of the expectation is by denying they are women. Because guess what, if you try to opt out, you put the power in other people's, mens, hands to let you opt out.

If you challenge, you take control, and the risk, yourself.

I was the only female in an IT company, the majority of my male coworkers kept assuming I was a secretary. I challenged all their expectations and showed being a woman did not mean I could not code. Even though one guy said I coded 'like a girl', whatever that meant.

The irony is that the original coders and computer scientists were women. It was seen as an extension of their administrative tasks. Only later did it become viewed as a 'male' profession.

Today they ran out of a cafe screaming and crying because a very elderly Italian man said "Buon appetito bella".

I remember that moment in early adolescence where every girl is suddenly forced into the male attention economy, and where being called beautiful by a stranger five times your age is considered a compliment rather than sexual harassment of a child.

It's terrifying. Why are adult men looking at me that way? If being attractive to adult men is a good thing, am I a failure if they don't think I'm attractive enough? If I'm attractive in the wrong way, will I get raped, and will I deserve it?

I get that old men aren't going to change their ways, and men often use "bella" without meaning much by it (like darling), but it is gross. So long as society sexualises women and girls, teen girls are going to run literally screaming and crying to try to escape from their oppression.

@NecessaryScene

Well, yes, there are people who like these stereotypes. Transwomen.

Non-binaries accept the transwomen's stereotypes and say "but not for me", throwing other women under the bus.

Gender critical women (aka feminists) reject those stereotypes universally, as they have for decades.

I dont think that's really fair on transwomen. There are young boys and men who are identifying as girls/women because they are sensitive/arty/bookish and they feel unable to bear the masculine stereotypes thrust upon them. There are of course the other sort of transwomen who we cant talk about, and I think youre right that they are in it for the stereotypes. But for the teenage boys who feel they can't be a real man if they prefer baking to football, I think they deserve our sympathy and support just as much as the transitioning girls.

I dont think that's really fair on transwomen.

You're right, I was thinking about one specific half of the male population.

There is indeed another half who are more akin to what we see in females, including non-binaries - this feeling of not fitting in with the stereotypes for their sex.

But all of them are deferring to the worldview of those who want to enact the stereotypes. They cannot adopt the better gender-critical worldview, lest it undermine those males.

@sanluca

Jeez, those stereotypes and expectations. My mum was the only female child who did her a levels because society expected girls to not take them. What would have happened if she and others hadn't challenged that expectation for girls?

I was the only female in an IT company, the majority of my male coworkers kept assuming I was a secretary. I challenged all their expectations and showed being a woman did not mean I could not code. Even though one guy said I coded 'like a girl', whatever that meant.

I kept working after my kids were born, challenging society's expectations mothers didn't work. Which was often still the case in my days. What if I and others hadn't challenged that expectation?

Women need strong women who will challenge the status quo to improve the situation for women and girls all over the world. Not tell them the only way they can get out of the expectation is by denying they are women. Because guess what, if you try to opt out, you put the power in other people's, mens, hands to let you opt out.

If you challenge, you take control, and the risk, yourself.

Similarly as my gran had died very young, my mum was expected to leave school early (in the 60s) to help at home. Apparently another female family member stepped in and said wtf to my grandad though, so she was able to go on and take her exams. 💪

I find relatives expecting us to only have "girls things" for DD a bit mental tbh - all our DC have been allowed to play with whatever they chose. Same as I was brought up, except I had brown cords and lovely velour jumpers to share with my brother and no sparkly things 😅 (DD loves sparkly things and "boys" things)

The stereotypes that "non binary" people want to reject don't have to be accepted and the more they are pushed back on by men and women the better.

I hate shopping and feel like a weirdo if I dress up or wear make up. This has nothing to do with whether I'm a woman or not though.

OP I hope your friends DD gets some help with how angry she is feeling and I hope schools chuck out the gender identity nonsense ASAP. :(

I hate shopping and feel like a weirdo if I dress up or wear make up. This has nothing to do with whether I'm a woman or not though.

See, I think this is where I do have some sympathy or even overlap with those who find being seen as a woman unbearable. I feel like I'm in drag if I wear makeup, and god help anyone who suggests I wear heels, flirt or make small talk. I still have some of that teenage wish to hide my shape what's left of it. I can see that that sort of feeling could extend to become 'That woman, that body, that person everyone else sees, is unbearably far from who I am.'

But all of them are deferring to the worldview of those who want to enact the stereotypes. They cannot adopt the better gender-critical worldview, lest it undermine those males.

I agree. People would have much more sympathy without the propping up of the more extreme side.

I can see that that sort of feeling could extend to become 'That woman, that body, that person everyone else sees, is unbearably far from who I am.'

I think a lot of women have frequently experienced the phenomenon of being spoken to as if:
– they don't have anything like the experience, skillset, intelligence and general competence that they actually do - to the point where that 'perception' that the person is talking to is unbearably far from who the woman actually is;
– they are support humans and walk-on actors in the drama of the lives of others with no recognised internal life, thoughts, and needs of their own - again, far from the reality.

There is no pill for (internalised) misogyny and its corrosive impact on day-to-day life. Even if there were, very few people would acknowledge that they need to take it.

@Bluebell246

I don't think I know any women who identify with regressive feminine stereotypes. I certainly don't. Does that make us non-binary too?

That's the thing isn't it. Whenever someone who identifies as non-binary describes what it is that makes them non-binary, they are literally describing the exact same feelings that almost every single person on earth has! I wonder if it's some lack of empathy or communication that has lead to people thinking that their utterly normal and bog standard feelings around their sex and gender are somehow very unique and in need of a special title. When the reality is, that their experience is identical to everyone elses.

Now I'm not 100% sure I can judge. When I was 21-22, I was really into alternative things and got caught up in what I can now see was a pop-culture inspired sojourn into paganism/wicca. I had been raised Catholic-ish and gone to Catholic school and my reaction to being raised in a religion I knew as a pre-teen I didn't really believe in, was to search for the religion I did believe in. Paganism seemed really nice, non-judgmental, environmentally conscious, etc. And in all honesty, wicca gave me super powers. I had been sexually assaulted about 6 months before I got into it, and with hindsight I can see 100% that I was looking for something to give me power and protect me in a world where I was physically much weaker.

So I can see how non-binary identities are for an awful lot of women, the same sort of magical thinking. Without the literal magic.

[quote Itsanewdah]@katemuff address their behaviour, not their identity. Their idendity is theirs to find. An idea: maybe the friends are not abusive because they don’t get called ridiculous?[/quote]
This is quite simply true. In any disciplinary situation with children and adolescents you need to separate the behaviour out to deal with it. You need to call the behaviour ridiculous, not the person. And a much less loaded word than "ridiculous" would help as well.

Similarly, for a school to describe attempts to deal with this child as "transphobic" doesn't help. Describing the parent, or even the parent's actions as "transphobic" (is that what happened? Too many passives in the OP. Difficult to ascertain who did what) is even more counterproductive.

@IAmNotAClownfish

The non-binary stuff isn't 100 miles away from gender-critical is it?

It's just with NB you get the whole ready-made rainbow friends and glitter family cheering you on and with gender critical you get rape and murder threats.

The difference is age.

Under 30, non-binary. 30-35 (so within the realms of being potentially fuckable with a bit of coercion), a bit of a grey area, probably best left alone when there are more easily manipulated younger ones. Over 35, clearly transphobic and must be strapped to the ducking stool.

What some people refuse to recognise, as they're obviously unable to comprehend of anybody over the age of potential fuckability having experienced the same or similar, is that many of us already know exactly what it feels like to not recognise a gender role as applying to us.

For fuck's sake, I grew up being told I was obviously a boy in the wrong body by my own mother because I wasn't like the girls in school. And puberty hitting meant all the things I loved or was comfortable with stopped because it 'was time for you to be a girl now'. Had somebody got in my ear at the age where I couldn't understand why I wasn't allowed a BMX, a computer, jeans, trainers, short hair, to go to superhero and action movies, was told I didn't want to become strong because having muscles meant that I'd look like a man, couldn't have my hair short, couldn't become a pilot but could become a secretary in the RAF and said there was a way that I could do all those things, get taller, get stronger AND I'd never have to worry about being forcibly groped by boys or pestered by men, wouldn't be hit by a partner for wanting to do an engineering degree because that was Trying To Be A Man which would humiliate him or have the itching of an off the rack bra or collapsed on the toilet floor sweating and puking from period pains - I'd have taken it. And my mother would have given permission, as I was clearly a total failure at Being a Girl and always had been.

I was never a boy. Wouldn't have described myself as a girl, though. Girls were crap. I'm not entirely comfortable about being described as a woman because that carries a hell of a lot of obligations in the eyes of others. But I know that's what I am. A woman. An adult female. One who hates shopping, still gets ridiculously excited about superhero movies. Who plays bass (although no bands want an old, fat woman playing with them when they can have an old, fat man doing it and a pretty 22 year old with her tits out singing), sings Tenor because she's good at it, can get a knackered old sound desk working with a few quick patches and a roll of gaffer tape, would rather boil my own eyeballs than sit through an episode of reality TV (unless it's The Running Man) or EastEnders, does the plumbing, electricals and flat pack assembly because she's better at it than her DP, taught him how to lift weights and can relocate a shoulder, wrist, finger or kneecap in an instant because she's had them so many times she's lost count.

The problem is that we do know. We know exactly what it's like. And the idea that we do know and disagree completely with traumatic surgery, taking drugs and fucking people we don't want to, because it's apparently abusive not to give them what they want at the cost of our own agency and putting ourselves at risk of yet more sodding sexual abuse and assault - well, that's what makes us so threatening. We could put an end to the supply of vulnerable younger people falling for their manipulation, coercion and both sexual and physical violence.

Sometimes I think I should have stuck with the original plan aged 10 (before I was told that girls don't do science subjects or stay on in Education, they do Business Studies and leave school at 16 to get a job typing at the Gas Board) of fucking off to become a vet and living in a place where I spent all my time around animals, not people. Animals are great, they know your sex but don't care about the rest as long as they get their food provided and you don't try to eat them or stick their heads on an office wall somewhere, they're happy. People, though - far harder work.

I too was told (by girls at school) that I was ‘basically a boy in a girl’s body’.

I was luckier in my parents though. They essentially treated me and my brothers as three similar beings of varying sizes, and had us taught orienteering, electronics, rock climbing, first aid, camp cookery and sailing. A more ‘feminine’ girl might have found that a hostile environment, I suppose. A more traditionally masculine boy might have resented the lack of competitive sports.

I might have to go and burn some dough over an open fire now.

The difference is age.

Under 30, non-binary. 30-35 (so within the realms of being potentially fuckable with a bit of coercion), a bit of a grey area, probably best left alone when there are more easily manipulated younger ones. Over 35, clearly transphobic and must be strapped to the ducking stool.

Little OJ certainly knows this rule. Who remembers this classic?

twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1174337790122831873

Who remembers this classic?
twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1174337790122831873

Oh I love it, Necessary, thanks for posting this. Janice Turner gracefully running rings around cross little Owen Jones. And so effortlessly. She is a joy and an inspiration.

I have realised at the age of 41 that I am either non-binary or a demi-girl (woman)

I have long hair, wear make up and paint my nails. But usually wear jeans or trousers and don't like Love Island.

Who knew?!

Under 30, non-binary. 30-35 (so within the realms of being potentially fuckable with a bit of coercion), a bit of a grey area, probably best left alone when there are more easily manipulated younger ones. Over 35, clearly transphobic and must be strapped to the ducking stool.

At last a definition, and one that makes clear sense. You know definitions are bigoted, though, don't you? They tell people what some bit of waffle actually means, and that's very bad because it reveals a bit of truth that's meant to stay hidden.

[quote Itsanewdah]@StepGarlic trans is an umbrella term that includes nonbinary. Nonbinary is also an umbrella term, demigirls are a subcategory (afab, but not fully identifying as female). A bit complicated at first[/quote]
I am female (observed not assigned) and dont fully (or even partially) 'identify' as feminine (I am assuming you mean feminine, as 'not identifying as female' makes no sense. as female describes a biological catogary which is based in a fact about your material body, so can not be opted in to or out of, you might as well say you dont identify as human)
Does that mean I am a demigirl? I am 54 so am I a demiwoman? (why is child language always used?)

@dyslek that's what I was thinking. Maybe there are more demi people out there than thought. I think I might be one as I don't subscribe to the traditional feminine stereotypes but I still am biologically female and don't see myself as male (I don't think anyone else would either).