Utterly confused?!

[katemuff]

My friends DD13 has 'come out' as trans and is describing herself as a demi-girl, non binary, and has daily changing pro nouns that are impossible to keep up with as far as I can tell. She was she, then they, then just her name now they again, I think. Today they ran out of a cafe screaming and crying because a very elderly Italian man said "Buon appetito bella".
They are very feminine in appearance and when I politely and gently asked I was told that as they didn't like make up, shopping, watch love island etc then she was more masculine and a demi-girl.
Now I am sorry if this sounds offensive, really, I am so confused. I work with looked after children and victims of grooming and exploitation and started to wonder if these gender identities have become a way in which privileged people are able to elicit sympathy. Is this not just a phase that a very privileged girl is going through? Am I missing something?
The children I work with would be suspended or expelled for much of what my friends DD has been up to which include screaming at teachers for being transphobic when they are delivering lessons on an almost daily basis she also physically attacked a boy in her year with ASD (badly scratching his face) who used the wrong pro noun, there have been a lot of incidents which she details on social media and gets hundreds of validating comments - many from adults!
Does anyone have any thoughts on this? My friend is very concerned but any attempts to settle it all down have been reported to her support worker at school as transphobic. I do not know what to make of it all, I was tempted to tell her what some of my clients have experienced and ask her if she still feels oppressed but resisted!
Sorry if this offends anyone, I am just going over it all in my head and would appreciate some sensible opinions!
Thank you

[quote Itsanewdah]@MoreRainThanAnyYet i am a biologically female person. I am very definitely NOT a woman.[/quote]
Wtf do you think a woman is then ?

Most of the GC women I know have quietly gone about demolishing gender stereotypes by being their brave, clever, strong, female selves and giving zero fucks what anyone thinks their behaviour or presentation should be.

Absolutely beats me how claiming to opt out of a sex class, and tantrumming if people don't "validate" your inner feelings about gender, are now considered to be the courageous options.

@Itsanewdah

Gender is a societal construct. Some like to conform, some don’t. Denying that being a “woman” or “man” comes with an absolute ton of societal expectations isn’t going to help. And yes, its outdated stereotypes. Yet most people live according to the, some happily, some not. I choose to be open about my disregard for these expectations. I do not identify with them. I will not be reduced to them. Call it whatever you want for your identity (your identity, your choice). Saying “its easy, females /males don’t have to conform” is denying the fact that there is pressure from very early childhood ( have a look at gender disappointment threads, have a look at how kids are raised and dressed). You can deny these pressures, but that is not going to make them go away, and is not conclusive to people finding their own way.

So you are saying that you are the same as every other gender critical, gender none conforming adult female person ? But you want to label this as distinct from ? Ordinary ? Women rather than try to free all women from the constraints ?

She has long hair, usually accessorised and 'done' and she wears v feminine clothing - dresses, skirts, crop tops. She also enjoys crafts, sewing, cooking. She told me she didn't like 'girlie things' like shopping and love island! Nor do many women and girls!

Itsanewdah - conform to what?

The kid needs to get offline and into the real world. Encourage embodied activities like sports, exercise and spending time in nature or with animals

I can't stand Love Island. Only a sub-set of people do (men and women).

Wow deleted.
Shouldn't waste my time on here.

@katemuff

She has long hair, usually accessorised and 'done' and she wears v feminine clothing - dresses, skirts, crop tops. She also enjoys crafts, sewing, cooking. She told me she didn't like 'girlie things' like shopping and love island! Nor do many women and girls!

Oh hec if that makes you none binary I'm a bloke

Gender makes no sense to me (biological sex makes sense for medical reasons - my body is different to a male one, not much i can do about that). I can accept it though that other people have a sense of gender.

Women on FWR don't have a sense of "gender" we just know what sex we are, like you.

Wtf do you think a woman is then ?

i think non binary people, like the deluded child in the op, think the word woman describes a section of people - male or female- who like painting nails, shopping and are poor at reverse parking.

@itsanewdah
Thanks for joining the conversation. You seem nice, willing to engage with different viewpoints.
To be honest, to me you sound pretty similar to us Gender Critical people. You agree with GC people that sex and gender are different, that gender stereotypes are placed on children and that some children don't conform to those gender stereotypes. The only point at which you differ is that GC people believe that the greater good is served by working to dismantle the stereotypes. So I don't conform to feminine stereotypes either, I probably conform more closely to masculine ones, but I don't believe that makes me any less of a woman.
A word of encouragement: you seem to think that gender stereotypes are unavoidable and impossible to remove. Im sure it feels that way for anyone joining adulthood in the last decade or so, but its really not the case. Actually, gender stereotyping became less prevalent following the end of WW2 (because women had been doing all the "mens jobs" during the war) but started to get worse again at the end of the 20th century (largely driven by media and sales/marketing e.g pink toys and blue toys). I don't know for sure how old you are, but if you're around 25-30 or even younger then you've grown up when stereotypes were at their worst and it makes sense to feel that theyre inevitable. But I promise you they're not. You can be anything you want, and still be a woman. So says a sporty, non-make-up-wearing, hates-pamper-parties, short-haired woman.

Definitely a way to be special, get attention and have everyone kowtowing to their every whim. I find it astonishing that so many people don't see this.

shark that's a good reply. I wonder too if it is an age (generational) thing. When I read one of it's posts, I was left a little thinking, well that's just like me but it doesn't feel such a deal, and didn't when I was younger.

[quote Itsanewdah]@Soontobe60 you proof my point quite nicely. Most people are completely unaware how stressful it is to not conform. They just don’t get it. But you don’t need to get it to accept it. I’ll never understand how somebody can refer to themselves as “woman” (or “man”). Gender makes no sense to me (biological sex makes sense for medical reasons - my body is different to a male one, not much i can do about that). I can accept it though that other people have a sense of gender.[/quote]
That's a surprising piece of data - could you point me to the source showing how it was established that 'most people don't know how stressful it is to not conform'?

I would have said 'common knowledge' is that it's a rite of passage for adolescents to feel strongly that they don't conform in one way or another. Would love to see how they found the opposite!

When you say 'sense of gender', is it - broadly speaking - referring to a sense of masculinity, femininity, or anything in between?
Those are concepts I can understand, although obviously they change dramatically between countries, cultures and times, but is there any reason that 'gender' means anything other than that?
I can't see a link to male/female sexed bodies when people talk about gender, but it does seem to cover the same ground as masculinity/femininity etc.

And it should go without saying that femininity is neither necessary nor sufficient to make someone female, and same for masc/male. They are separate, mutually exclusive traits.

I choose to be open about my disregard for these expectations. I do not identify with them. I will not be reduced to them

Me too. Still doesn't change facts. Neither of us can opt out of our sex based oppression. By your own admission, everyone can tell your sex and will see you as 'woman' regardless of what you call yourself.

I'm just going to start telling people I'm a non binary rainbow otter or whatever. As soon as anyone over the age of 40 starts doing this it will no longer be cool and kids will start to rebel.
I will be channelling Edina. La Croix sweetie, La croix

@sharksarecool great post

But you don’t need to get it to accept it. I’ll never understand how somebody can refer to themselves as “woman” (or “man”). Gender makes no sense to me (biological sex makes sense for medical reasons - my body is different to a male one, not much i can do about that).

But when most people say they are a woman or a man, they mean they are biologically female or male. And you said that biological sex makes sense to you. So how do you not understand how someone can refer to themselves as a woman or a man? Being a woman isn't having a girly gender identity. It's a biological fact.

You're dead right that gender makes no sense though. It's just a bunch of stupid stereotypes.

katemuff

I know what you mean about working with young people in the care system. I have also met several young people who have suffered really extreme abuse who have identified as trans. What really grinds my gears is that it is the vocal middle class trans / non-binary teens who make the most noise about pronouns / self-ID etc who will end up changing legislation and undermining safeguarding. They are also likely to abandon their neo-pronouns for the next craze in a few years' time. Whereas the kids in care who identify as trans will be put at increased risk, will still be at risk of grooming and sexual exploitation, and may do irreversible harm to themselves trying to escape from a body that has already been abused. They are the collateral damage and their privileged peers don't even know they exist.

On the other hand, the behaviour of your friend's DD is fairly extreme and possibly suggestive of considerable underlying distress - physically attacking another child and storming out in a panic when someone calls them the wrong name is not normal for a teenager. Has anyone sat down and really talked with them about what is going on in their life at the moment (beyond their gender identity)? It could be that there is some other issue (severe anxiety? bullying? autism?) that is getting mixed up with all the gender identity stuff?

@Itsanewdah

Ok, I’m going to get flamed, but here it is. I’m nonbinary, assigned female at birth. I often appear female as my bodytype doesn’t leave much choice. Figuring out who you are in a world that insists you have to be something else is hard. Of course her behaviour is unacceptable, but belittling her confusion won’t help. And its not a race to the bottom, there is always somebody who has it worse. Doesn’t mean that you have to be ok. So - deal with her behavior, but accept her needing to find an identity. It might be nonbinary, it might be not. But that is for her to find out, not for others to define.

Well said @Itsanewdah . It's natural for teenagers to experiment with their identity, you got to let them have some space, but her behaviour needs addressing.

Although having a teenager it's frustrating how indoctrinated they are to be PC and not question the awful phrase TWAW.

@Tuscancat

I'm just going to start telling people I'm a non binary rainbow otter or whatever. As soon as anyone over the age of 40 starts doing this it will no longer be cool and kids will start to rebel. I will be channelling Edina. La Croix sweetie, La croix

Can you imagine the derision and indignation we'd get from the young if we started to do that? Can you imagine how horrified they'd be if their parents started with that crap? We should totally do it.

Itsanewdah
I’ll never understand how somebody can refer to themselves as “woman” (or “man”). Gender makes no sense to me (biological sex makes sense for medical reasons - my body is different to a male one, not much i can do about that).

So how should someone with of the female sex with profound intellectual disabilities be referred to? By your logic, it would be impossible to call such a person "a woman" because she is incapable of determining the issue of "gender" for herself. Are you comfortable with referring to her as "this female person"?

do you think women and girls should ever be able to have words to describe their sex class and their rights without gender stereotypes or is there no need for that?

"I don't like some of the associations with the word for X, so let's not have any word for X" doesn't seem like a very good plan.

For any value of X.