Utterly confused?!

[katemuff]

My friends DD13 has 'come out' as trans and is describing herself as a demi-girl, non binary, and has daily changing pro nouns that are impossible to keep up with as far as I can tell. She was she, then they, then just her name now they again, I think. Today they ran out of a cafe screaming and crying because a very elderly Italian man said "Buon appetito bella".
They are very feminine in appearance and when I politely and gently asked I was told that as they didn't like make up, shopping, watch love island etc then she was more masculine and a demi-girl.
Now I am sorry if this sounds offensive, really, I am so confused. I work with looked after children and victims of grooming and exploitation and started to wonder if these gender identities have become a way in which privileged people are able to elicit sympathy. Is this not just a phase that a very privileged girl is going through? Am I missing something?
The children I work with would be suspended or expelled for much of what my friends DD has been up to which include screaming at teachers for being transphobic when they are delivering lessons on an almost daily basis she also physically attacked a boy in her year with ASD (badly scratching his face) who used the wrong pro noun, there have been a lot of incidents which she details on social media and gets hundreds of validating comments - many from adults!
Does anyone have any thoughts on this? My friend is very concerned but any attempts to settle it all down have been reported to her support worker at school as transphobic. I do not know what to make of it all, I was tempted to tell her what some of my clients have experienced and ask her if she still feels oppressed but resisted!
Sorry if this offends anyone, I am just going over it all in my head and would appreciate some sensible opinions!
Thank you

Sorry everyone, I've just cross-posted with most of the thread. I'm not trying to pile on, Itsanewdah I wouldn't have quoted you if I had realised everyone else had

It's tough being young. It's even tougher being a young woman. I'm not surprised that so many try to identify out of being what they are. But as you get older and realise it's not possible to identify out of biology, a sense of acceptance makes life much easier.

It isnt far from gender critical except with non binary you get to say 'those female people over there are happy with their oppression' thereby attempting to opt out yourself whilst reinforcing the boxes for everyone else. That's why it isn’t feminism and why it's not actually that brave and stunning.
Sadly I think the more life experience these non binary females get, the more they will notice its not possible to identify out of an oppressed group. Those doing the real oppression won't recognise them as anything other than female people.

The entire point though is that for non-binary to work, there has to be a belief that the majority of people are binary. You have to have people in the binary boxes so you can call yourself non-binary.

Of course the majority of people are non-binary. But if we all declared it, who would be left in the binary boxes? Those who need the stereotypes to survive so they can use it to define themselves. A very few people who need that security or need those stereotypes to declare they are the opposite sex, or a Demi-girl or femme or whatever label they want on attached. They are the ones needing the boxes.

Not sure how people miss this but I guess that is why we hear things like ‘many people don’t realize the stress of trying to conform’. Eer…

(afab, but not fully identifying as female)

Assuming that in this case 'female' is being used as a gender signifier rather than sex, isn't that what we used to call a feminist in old money?

'Female who thinks gender roles are bullshit'

Same thing?

To get back to the OP, based on the fact that there are a lot of girls in the same group identifying as trans/nb, and that tgf parent has been "told off" by the school, it sounds like it may be the school itself pushing the agenda. In my area, most secondary schools have at least one trans-identifying pupil, but one school in particular has LOADS. Funny that - all the born-in-the-wrong-body children happen to attend the same school.
It seems to me that in the Grown-Up Land of teachers and parents, a good number do not have particularly high awareness or strong convictions. So if you take all the children "at risk" of gender questioning, in the less Stonewalled schools, only children with very "woke" parents will end up transitioning, whereas in the more Stonewalled schools, only children with the most GC parents will hold off from transitioning.
So, OP, in terms of helping your friend, do your best to inform her of her rights as a parent and the duty of the school to respect her wishes, and maybe drop in the suggestion about a fresh start in a new school

I’ll never understand how somebody can refer to themselves as “woman” (or “man”)
Jesus tapdancing Christ.

Woman - adult human female. Man - adult human male. What else is there to understand?

Gender makes no sense to me...I can accept it though that other people have a sense of gender.
Since the conflation of the words "sex" and "gender" that sense of the latter has been skewed, to the disadvantage of women.

Gender is a collection of stereotypes with little to no basis in reality. There is no "assigning" of gender (nor is there the assigning of sex at birth, a newborn's sex is observed), and any "gender identity" or gender feelings one has are their own, with no requirement to be acknowledged or validated by any other person.

katemuff's friend's daughter is 13 and going through the aggro of puberty with the added spirit-crushing pressures of social media and the internet. The young woman would be able to sort herself out without those those pressures as well as gentle reminders that gender woo is rubbish and humans cannot change sex.

[quote Itsanewdah]@Soontobe60 you proof my point quite nicely. Most people are completely unaware how stressful it is to not conform. They just don’t get it. But you don’t need to get it to accept it. I’ll never understand how somebody can refer to themselves as “woman” (or “man”). Gender makes no sense to me (biological sex makes sense for medical reasons - my body is different to a male one, not much i can do about that). I can accept it though that other people have a sense of gender.[/quote]
I've spent my entire life not conforming and paying the price in various ways. I bet half the women on here will feel pretty much the same way. It's perfectly natural not to feel you conform or fit in. Disabled, lesbian, foreign, minorityised for one reason or another, not pretty enough, not sociable enough, too tall, too fat, neuroatypical, abused, confused... We're all different. It's fine to be different, it's normal feel you don't fit. It's not fine to insist the world treats you like you're more special than anyone else and to go round threatening people who won't follow the rules you want to impose on them.

I’ll never understand how somebody can refer to themselves as “woman” (or “man”)

Even though practically every human being has done so throughout history? Why wouldn't they? Until very recently everybody understood what a woman is and what a man is. How odd that some people have unlearned that.

This article sums non-binary up very well. It’s the new ‘Not like other girls’

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/4w.pub/non-binary-is-the-new-not-like-other-girls-and-its-deeply-rooted-in-misogyny/amp/

Jesus tapdancing Christ

Now there's a bloke who challenged stereotypes. Long hair, white dress, shoots power beams from his magic sword.

Wait, no, that's She-Ra.

I do get confused.

I can understand that if you think being a woman means something beyond biology , if you think being a woman says something about who you are, your personality, strengths and weaknesses, likes and dislikes , then yes, I can understand that you , and I think very few people ,would want to associate themselves with that broader , inaccurate , vague definition

If you think it's just biology then it's no different to saying adult human female which you already have said ( actually you may not have said adult )

The rub is that since forever woman has meant adult human female and all our laws are worded based on that meaning, snd changing the meaning could change our laws without any oversight , by accident not design.

All that claiming "non binary" people exist does is create a new binary

Gender woo says there are really important boxes of sex stereotypes & everyone must either fit into the man stereotype or the woman stereotype or float around in the non box /non binary.

Feminism says get rid of the boxes/stereotypes & let people explore their interests as individuals.

Wait, no, that's She-Ra.
half of this house worship her

I have a lot of sympathy and agreement with your general position, Itsanewdah, even down to some of the objection to being l called ‘a woman’. I do wince at Mrs, wife, ‘let’s ask mummy’, all the terms that remind me that others seem me as female first and me next, so to speak.

But I think that’s probably genuinely internalized misogyny.

I’m female and therefore I fit the definition of a woman and that’s it, really. ‘Woman’ doesn’t tell you anything about my interests, feelings or abilities, just my sex. Can you put your finger on why the word bothers you so much, though?

I’d be challenging the therapist- maybe even with a letter to her governing body. Every therapist and counsellor I’ve ever seen has been very clear that you cannot control other people! You control your own thoughts and actions ( and these create your feelings.)
While it is possible to ask people to respect your choice of pronouns, you cannot possibly hope for 7billion people to get them right every time. (You can ask other people to respect your boundaries or not mention your weight or not park in your driveway but you cannot make them)

How is this person ever going to become a happy and confident and resilient adult if she is being taught that her good mood is totally reliant on the actions of other people?

Surely it’s therapy 101 that other people don’t cause your feelings - because there is enormous power in that.

She-Ra! Properly lost it at that one 😆

Talking of fingers, I appear to be putting mine on several keys at once. Oops.

There are generations of people whose whole world has gone up in flames on a Greek island this week. Some middle class teenagers really do need to get a grip! Ffs.

If this was my child I'd take them off grid until their internet addiction had been cured. Cold-turkey in the highlands for 6 months. How much does gender stereotyping matter when there's not much other than land, sky and sea. This child needs space to breathe, she sounds so angry.

@StarfishAndCoffee123 actually,that's an interesting point - I wonder how many pupils who are questioning their gender identity there are in schools based in areas of multiple deprivation compared to pupils questioning their gender identify in 'middle class' areas. Also, there's interesting articles about luxury beliefs, where it's argued that those who have the luxury of time and money are able to cushion the possible detriments from holding the belief (an example being the 'free love' era).

When I say that I am a woman, the only thing that says about me is that I am female.
You don't know anything else about me and you can't assume anything from just that piece of information. You don't know what I look like, how I dress, what I like or what I do.
We should be destroying gender stereotypes, not reinforcing them by saying that if we don't conform then we must not be a woman.

I sort of feel with the non-binaries (not necessarily the poster on this thread) there’s an idea that if you do do the conforming of makeup/hair/nails then you’re lesser and you deserve being treated as less than men. Like they’ll be off being NB and won’t get any of the crap that “women” get. Sadly I don’t think it’ll happen! I do wear makeup and get dressed up from time to time, but it doesn’t mean I want to be subjugated anymore than non-conforming women. I don’t conform in other ways - I don’t have children, I refuse to do wifework, I challenge misogyny etc etc.

@Itsanewdah

I choose to be open about my disregard for these expectations. I do not identify with them. I will not be reduced to them

That’s how everyone feels about stereotypes. Do you know any people who are happy to be defined by stereotypes or reduced to them? And what are these expectations are you thinking of, anyway? Whose expectations? Are your parents, teachers, peers expecting you to be “girly”? Are they expectations about appearance? Fashion? Behaviour? Being “pretty”? Not doing STEM subjects? Sitting in a ladylike way? Looking like you’re on an advert for makeup? But who “identifies” with any of those things, anyway? My identity is my self and character, not other people’s expectations of me; so I don’t really care whether I “identify” with them or not, for example. If I thought other people’s ideas or expectations about me “reduced” me, I’d not have a very strong sense of self. What happened to proving people’s outdated ideas about men or women wrong?

Ultimately, by calling yourself non-binary, aren’t you doing nothing but reinforcing the binary? So: you go off somewhere else and all the male/female expectations stay for everyone else who you presume is happy with them? But actually what you’ve done is solidify, intensify and reinforce those expectations and roles - not expand or get rid of them.

If all women were socially expected to have long hair, and those with short declared themselves non-binary instead, haven’t they simply just reinforced the very expectations that they claim not to like, by ”identifying” long hair even more with “being a woman”?

What you’re doing by declaring yourself non-binary isn’t getting away from expectations or stereotypes. You’re actually taking an active part in enforcing those same gender stereotypes on others. You’re not escaping, but rather becoming part of the social system that polices and shores up the gender stereotypes for everyone else. Except you’re actually actively doing it now. You don’t like those social expectations, so rather than proving them wrong or challenging them, you’re agreeing with and reinforcing them, just on other men and women instead.

Well, yes, there are people who like these stereotypes. Transwomen.

Non-binaries accept the transwomen's stereotypes and say "but not for me", throwing other women under the bus.

Gender critical women (aka feminists) reject those stereotypes universally, as they have for decades.

I think this is a great example of how the concept of NB seeks to liberate only the NB identified individual from sex-based stereotypes. Sadly for anyone who isn't NB ID'd, stereotypes must remain. Otherwise said NB individual has no measure against which to be considered different. NB people need the rest of us to stay in the binary boxes as other PPs have already said.

In contrast feminism seeks to liberate everyone. Magdalen said it best

This article by Rebecca Reilley-Cooper isn't specifically about NB IDs but really helped me get my head around things

aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison