Utterly confused?!

[katemuff]

My friends DD13 has 'come out' as trans and is describing herself as a demi-girl, non binary, and has daily changing pro nouns that are impossible to keep up with as far as I can tell. She was she, then they, then just her name now they again, I think. Today they ran out of a cafe screaming and crying because a very elderly Italian man said "Buon appetito bella".
They are very feminine in appearance and when I politely and gently asked I was told that as they didn't like make up, shopping, watch love island etc then she was more masculine and a demi-girl.
Now I am sorry if this sounds offensive, really, I am so confused. I work with looked after children and victims of grooming and exploitation and started to wonder if these gender identities have become a way in which privileged people are able to elicit sympathy. Is this not just a phase that a very privileged girl is going through? Am I missing something?
The children I work with would be suspended or expelled for much of what my friends DD has been up to which include screaming at teachers for being transphobic when they are delivering lessons on an almost daily basis she also physically attacked a boy in her year with ASD (badly scratching his face) who used the wrong pro noun, there have been a lot of incidents which she details on social media and gets hundreds of validating comments - many from adults!
Does anyone have any thoughts on this? My friend is very concerned but any attempts to settle it all down have been reported to her support worker at school as transphobic. I do not know what to make of it all, I was tempted to tell her what some of my clients have experienced and ask her if she still feels oppressed but resisted!
Sorry if this offends anyone, I am just going over it all in my head and would appreciate some sensible opinions!
Thank you

Unless they can explain what "demi girl" actually means (and what the criteria are for a full girl, or 10% girl) then I think you have to gently explain that the rest of society is not going to take them seriously.

Violent behaviour to other pupils needs to be taken seriously by the school. Nobody gets to assault another student and hide behind an identity label.

@MoreRainThanAnyYet i am a biologically female person. I am very definitely NOT a woman.

Ok, can you explain to me what the difference is, and why we need to make that distinction? What practical difference does it make, to you and those around you?

[quote Itsanewdah]@MoreRainThanAnyYet i am a biologically female person. I am very definitely NOT a woman.[/quote]
A woman is just what we call a biologically female adult person.

It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.

Itsanewdah, you have decided that a woman is someone that looks and acts in a certain way regardless of biology. GC feminists say that a woman is simply an adult human female and should have no expectations on how they look, act or what they enjoy. Can you not see how you are promoting regressive, sexist stereotypes?

[quote Itsanewdah]@MoreRainThanAnyYet i am a biologically female person. I am very definitely NOT a woman.[/quote]
Sorry, don't feel you have to answer if this is insulting but how do you not feel you are a woman?

[quote Itsanewdah]@katemuff address their behaviour, not their identity. Their idendity is theirs to find. An idea: maybe the friends are not abusive because they don’t get called ridiculous?[/quote]
@Itsanewdah

I did read it. You imply that being called ridiculous justifies abusive behaviour.
Yet again, gender ideologues sanctioning harm.
The identify is inextricably linked with the sense of entitlement and, thus, believing they can behave (and treat others) any way they like. They cannot be separated into standalone issues.

You are female but "NOT a woman". Interesting. What would you define a woman as? Because, to me, it's nothing more than an adult human female. I don't expect anyone in this sex class to wear long hair, floaty dresses, floral perfume and makeup to be eligible for the description.to apply
Utterly regressive.

I think it would do teenagers the world of good to switch the internet off for a month (at least) . At 13, I was still playing block, British bulldog, riding my bike on day-long bike rides with my friends and trying to stay out until the street lights came on…I don’t think I even thought about my identity. A few years later I discovered indie music and was very proud of my 21 inch flares and my back catalogue of the Roses and the Verve. My rebellion was clearly very tame…but I still knew everything about everything of course! But, I wouldn’t have dared to physically assault anyone, do anything that would bring the police to the door or even be overly rude to adults. I know this very much sounds like ‘in my day…’ but how the fuck did we get here?

Gender is a societal construct. Some like to conform, some don’t. Denying that being a “woman” or “man” comes with an absolute ton of societal expectations isn’t going to help. And yes, its outdated stereotypes. Yet most people live according to the, some happily, some not.
I choose to be open about my disregard for these expectations. I do not identify with them. I will not be reduced to them. Call it whatever you want for your identity (your identity, your choice).
Saying “its easy, females /males don’t have to conform” is denying the fact that there is pressure from very early childhood ( have a look at gender disappointment threads, have a look at how kids are raised and dressed). You can deny these pressures, but that is not going to make them go away, and is not conclusive to people finding their own way.

i am a biologically female person. I am very definitely NOT a woman.

So what is a woman, and in what way are you so exponentially different from other women?

@Itsanewdah

Gender is a societal construct. Some like to conform, some don’t. Denying that being a “woman” or “man” comes with an absolute ton of societal expectations isn’t going to help. And yes, its outdated stereotypes. Yet most people live according to the, some happily, some not. I choose to be open about my disregard for these expectations. I do not identify with them. I will not be reduced to them. Call it whatever you want for your identity (your identity, your choice). Saying “its easy, females /males don’t have to conform” is denying the fact that there is pressure from very early childhood ( have a look at gender disappointment threads, have a look at how kids are raised and dressed). You can deny these pressures, but that is not going to make them go away, and is not conclusive to people finding their own way.

You realise this is the exact stance other women are receiving death threats for stating?

I see, so not wearing dresses and makeup? Things like that? Maybe I'm a demigirl and have only just realised, thanks for being so willing to talk about it.

@Itsanewdah

Ok, I’m going to get flamed, but here it is. I’m nonbinary, assigned female at birth. I often appear female as my bodytype doesn’t leave much choice. Figuring out who you are in a world that insists you have to be something else is hard. Of course her behaviour is unacceptable, but belittling her confusion won’t help. And its not a race to the bottom, there is always somebody who has it worse. Doesn’t mean that you have to be ok. So - deal with her behavior, but accept her needing to find an identity. It might be nonbinary, it might be not. But that is for her to find out, not for others to define.

What makes you different from all other females?

Op, I agree with you. You're not the one who is confused here.

I can’t see how that’s any different to what most of the women here are saying about themselves, only using the term non-binary rather than feminist or even just women.

I don’t think anyone has really made a clear case for what non-binary means, it would be helpful if you could. I suspect the majority here will not agree with your reasoning, but you are well within your rights to refer to yourself however you feel most comfortable (just as how you are viewed by others will be out of your control.)

[quote Itsanewdah]@Soontobe60 you proof my point quite nicely. Most people are completely unaware how stressful it is to not conform. They just don’t get it. But you don’t need to get it to accept it. I’ll never understand how somebody can refer to themselves as “woman” (or “man”). Gender makes no sense to me (biological sex makes sense for medical reasons - my body is different to a male one, not much i can do about that). I can accept it though that other people have a sense of gender.[/quote]
I totally agree with you that gender makes no sense and biology is what makes bodies different. Most people who say they are a woman or a man though aren't attaching any value or judgement to that, they are simply saying they are an adult female or male. I, and I think most people on this board would equally agree that they are not 'woman' if 'woman' is a gender with all the gender expectation that goes along with that. That's the problem when gender and sex are mushed together, meanings become confused.

I'd disagree though that most people are totally aware of how stressful it is not to conform - it's the reason why most people conform. e.g. I don't like removing my body hair to go swimming etc. but I do it to conform (I am aware I have been totally conditioned into this, it's something I am working on).

[quote Itsanewdah]@StepGarlic trans is an umbrella term that includes nonbinary. Nonbinary is also an umbrella term, demigirls are a subcategory (afab, but not fully identifying as female). A bit complicated at first[/quote]
You might find this thread covers some helpful material:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4281733-The-Trans-Umbrella-Is-Older-Than-You-Think

womenspeakscotland.com/2021/06/23/the-trans-umbrella-is-older-than-you-think/

@EmbarrassingAdmissions thank you!

If my son was assaulted by the semi demi pupil I would withdraw him from the school until something was done about the brat. End of.

I met DS1s transboy friend today for the first time. I was a little surprised because they are actually very female presenting.

I don't really understand why you would maintain you are really a boy but present as feminine. But then on the other hand I believe boys can have long hair/wear make up/dresses etc and that doesn't make them girls.

I'm still confused by the whole thing, but the other child is a good friend to DS, and they don't appear to be a bad influence, and he's never had that before so I'm keeping my nose out.

@Itsanewdah

Ok, I’m going to get flamed, but here it is. I’m nonbinary, assigned female at birth. I often appear female as my bodytype doesn’t leave much choice. Figuring out who you are in a world that insists you have to be something else is hard. Of course her behaviour is unacceptable, but belittling her confusion won’t help. And its not a race to the bottom, there is always somebody who has it worse. Doesn’t mean that you have to be ok. So - deal with her behavior, but accept her needing to find an identity. It might be nonbinary, it might be not. But that is for her to find out, not for others to define.

I'll bite

I don't believe that female means anything more than what sex you are ( in the animal reproductive sense)

I find it very insulting when people imply through their identity labels that I must be accepting of some kind of gendered identity... either I accept "female" as part of my identity, or I reject female as an identity and as a result self exclude from things provided for females to make up for the discrimination I face just because of what my body is

Beyond my body type there is absolutely nothing I share in common with most never mind all women

I have no mind to identify as either sex or none because that type of restrictive identity isn't me

But I have no mind to pretend that my sec doesn't exist and affect things like my physical strength , the fit of clothes , my symptoms should I have a heart attack

[quote Itsanewdah]@Soontobe60 you proof my point quite nicely. Most people are completely unaware how stressful it is to not conform. They just don’t get it. But you don’t need to get it to accept it. I’ll never understand how somebody can refer to themselves as “woman” (or “man”). Gender makes no sense to me (biological sex makes sense for medical reasons - my body is different to a male one, not much i can do about that). I can accept it though that other people have a sense of gender.[/quote]
But non conforming shouldn't be stressful and it's gender ideology that is hell bent of enforcing the ridiculous sexist sex role stereotypes. Why can't you see that?

Young girls who want short hair or play football or are simply lesbians (same sex attracted females) being told they must be 'trans' because they don't fit the girly mould. This ideology IS causing stress and poor mental health because these kids think they MUST choose a special 'identity'

How stressful do you think it is when a young lesbian now has no word for herself because males decided it was now theirs too and her being told her protected sexual orientation is mean and bigoted?
Is it really a surprise that so many would rather identify as men?

Just out of curiosity, 5 years ago there was no 'non binary' so what would you have been then other than just a non conforming female, like most of us? Why the need to state you are non binary? What exactly is that label for?

'Gender' makes no sense because it's nonsense. Completely unnecessary and used as a means to subjugate females.

Many people do not believe in gender ideology

MOST people do not believe in gender ideology. It is the feelings based orthodoxy of less than 1% of the population.

It should be only taught in schools as such instead of telling impressionable children it as fact that people can actually change sex and telling them that being their 'true self' requires drugs and surgery.

[quote Itsanewdah]@Soontobe60 you proof my point quite nicely. Most people are completely unaware how stressful it is to not conform. They just don’t get it. But you don’t need to get it to accept it. I’ll never understand how somebody can refer to themselves as “woman” (or “man”). Gender makes no sense to me (biological sex makes sense for medical reasons - my body is different to a male one, not much i can do about that). I can accept it though that other people have a sense of gender.[/quote]
You don't have to conform to any gender identity, not just the one people try to foist in you because of you sex

I genuinely cannot see how anyone isn't non-binary? If it's about conforming to stereotypes (no one has ever offered an alternative explanation) then not only are we all trans, we are all non-binary. This is truly a snake eating itself.

OP, sounds awful for you and I'm so sorry that this is a type of behaviour you have to almost hide to get advice on. Good luck.