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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gay men being subject to abuse for their sexuality

546 replies

secular111 · 07/08/2021 19:48

Or Homophobia as we know it.

The belief that the trans-activists would stop by just attacking lesbians turns out to have been a miscalculation; gay men are a target now, and the community is only just starting to wake-up to the threat it is facing.

Woke Homophobia

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15
Whatsnewpussyhat · 08/08/2021 17:49

I do not see how trans-inclusive definitions "undermine discrimination law"

Forcing females to pretend a subset of males somehow belong in their sex class IS undermining discrimination law.
How can we point out and tackle sex discrimination if we can't define women as adult human females. Entirely different from males, regardless of any identity.

dontyouworrychild · 08/08/2021 17:52

@FindTheTruth

Can you imagine this thread in reverse where there's 1 young lesbian in her teens surrounded by 20+ bluebirds at school and online and in the community? I feel for teen lesbians I really do 😭

Some of the young detransitioners have spoken about experiences that have been distressing and traumatising. Despite their participation in sexual relationships under some coercion (both from individuals and the social group)

The coercion is chilling especially when you realise they want to make it law and remove same-sex rights.

I feel for them too.

I think people need to remember that coerced consent, isn't consent.

Chickenyhead · 08/08/2021 17:53

Lots of men don't care about consent, never have.

Instead of indoctrination of the young with trans ideology, maybe they should teach consent

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 08/08/2021 18:00

I posted this on another thread but it's highly relevant here. A male perspective, from a gay man who was roused to awareness of the current situation by two women, through discussion and debate.

extract

My Sexuality

When I came out at 14 in 1992, my father went to the doctor. Clearly, he didn’t want a gay son and the doctor thought that he could help. I received a book which suggested my sexual orientation was just a minor setback that could be rectified. It suggested that I simply had a neutral sexuality and that with effort, I could “redirect” this sexual energy to the “proper” sex — starting by fantasising about the more “masculine” women.

I genuinely tried this, for a week. Even at 14 I had a vivid imagination. I tried to imagine “masculine” women — short haired butch bikers, soldiers, anything that could still interest my sexuality, but as soon as the clothes came off and I was presented with a female form, my sexuality simply said no.

I realised then, even at 14, what “gender” was, even without consciously knowing it. I knownowthough, and I can explain it. “Gender” roles and stereotypes are imprinted on my sexuality as aproxyfor sex. I’m attracted to masculine things becausesocietyhas associated these as markers for male sex. This is how uniform, bear and leather kinks develop. All these “gender” things are signals to my sexuality that “this is a male”, simply because we no longer walk around naked.

Gender ideology is homophobic, and backwards

As Stonewall has now declared that gay men are attracted to malegender, they now have this backwards, and this is wholly homophobic. I am homosexual, exclusively attracted to the samesex. The gender roles and presentation are simply markers my sexuality uses. No wonder people are “disgusted” by gender non conformists, as their sexuality gets mixed signals and that cognitive dissonance can be felt. That is where bigotry and prejudice lie, failing to recognise it’s your sexuality having a meltdown because it’s not actually that clever, instead of recognising it and giving it a wry smile and a pat on the head.

Sexuality however is rooted in sex, specificallyphenotype. When all the gender presentation is stripped back and I see the naked form, my sexuality is interested in the sex characteristics of males, and this innate homosexuality is now under attack from trans rights activists.

Again and again I see sexuality reduced to a “genital preference”, with people saying that my insistence for male genitals is “exclusionary” to trans men, transphobic, and thus bigoted. Because they insist trans menaremen, if I don’t accept them as such and overcome my “genital preference”, I am bigoted and need to consider accepting men regardless of their appearance.

This is awfully and horrifically familiar. It is a new form of conversion therapy and while I have personally felt it (and then gone into full attack mode on twitter, which isn’t healthy), I can now see that lesbians are ground zero for this. Below are examples of the homophobic comments now made acceptable by this new ideology:

The Boxer Ceiling(warning, upsetting comments)
photos.google.com/share/AF1QipN6bUPUugEzmNmC-nZTunsVPUtgAuMANMmoVSD1j5gmROqY5E53VSCukHKc8zSRHA?key=bTMzMDNKeC1vbkFkRjlqTHJKM284RU1IQ3JkSlF3

Get The L out(UK)
www.gettheloutuk.com/

Sexuality is based on sex not gender

(continues)

I understand gender dysphoria and the need for some people to medically transition. However, all this does is alter the external appearance of the body so that someone’s visiblephenotypeismore likethe sex they want to be. Current medical capability does not deliver results in any trans man that can get my sexuality to “accept” them as a male. It doesn’t make me a bigot; it is the definition of who and what I am.

This is particularly harmful to young gay men and lesbians discovering their sexuality. To be told their innate sexuality is a “preference” they should think about is deeply worrying. I’ve been there, it isn’t pleasant being made to feel you are somehow “wrong in the head” for your feelings. In addition, coercing people to engage in sexual acts that they don’t want is sexual abuse, and the definition of rape culture. It needs to stop.

Words need to be clear for us to communicate

If a trans person wants to communicate and we want to be able to communicate with them, especially when it comes to dating, we all need to be able to agree and understand words. If someone says they are a “gay trans man”, that is all the information I need. I can understand that they are female, heterosexual and trans. Put together this means I can say I’m not interested in them sexually, and I never need to make them feel excluded because they are trans. I can put it another way and embarrassment and time wasting is avoided.

Similarly, I need to be able to express fairly that as a gay man, I am never going to be sexually turned on by a trans man’s body when naked. Of course I can be attracted when the only clue of their sex phenotype I get is what I can see with their pants on, but Iknowwhat my sexuality does when presented with a mixed or incomplete phenotype. It’s not interested. I need a way to express this to trans men on a dating site without resorting to things that will make them feel bad. “Gay man” should be all that is needed, but if “gay man” is widened to include people who are not turned off by mixed phenotype or female presentation, that is a real problem. We need accurate words.

Source: uncommongroundmedia.com/how-i-became-a-trans-rights-activist-then-turned-gender-critical/

dontyouworrychild · 08/08/2021 18:03

So let me see if I've got this right.

Gay man to straight man: Can we date/have sex?
Straight man to gay man: Sorry, I'm not into lads.

Perfectly fine, not homophobic just not the persons preference

Lesbian to straight woman: Can we date/have sex?
Straight woman to lesbian : Sorry, I'm not into ladies

Also perfectly fine, not homophobic just not the persons preference

Trans man to straight or gay man: Can we date/have sex?
Straight or gay man to Trans man: Sorry, I'm not into trans men

Transphobe

Trans woman to straight woman or lesbian: Can we date/have sex?
Straight or lesbian woman to trans woman: Sorry, I'm not into trans women

Transphobe

Is that what some (and it must be some because surely not all of them think this?) trans people are claiming? Because that's just boggling. It's utterly ridiculous.

Nobody, but nobody has the right to tell anyone who they must or must not date or have sex with. Everyone is allowed to choose. You do not, as a trans person, have the right to demand that anyone dates or sleeps with you, lest they be labelled a hateful bigot!

Jesus wept.

EishetChayil · 08/08/2021 18:03

Well, guess what. Too bad. You don't get to have that. You don't get to completely exclude trans women.

Guess what? I do. I get to completely exclude transwomen.

I will categorically NEVER in my life consider a transwoman as a sexual partner. Not in a million years. Never.

Got that?

Sn0tnose · 08/08/2021 18:04

If we were to replace all the "male sexed" parts with a "female sexed" parts, down to chromosomes and all, in what way exactly would the person in question remain a "male'? Are you getting confused between science and science fiction? It wasn’t my strongest subject at school, but I’m pretty sure I’m correct in saying that science is based in reality.

Well, guess what. Too bad. You don't get to have that. You don't get to completely exclude trans women I feel like I’m about to tell a child that Father Christmas isn’t real. Listen here Sonny Jim, Lesbians can exclude anyone they want. Their preferences mean they can exclude blonds, brunettes or redheads, tall women, short women, fat women or skinny women. Their orientation means that transwomen are automatically excluded before their preferences even come into it. And it’s actually you and your group of homophobic bigots with dubious ideas concerning consent who don’t get to decide who lesbians should and shouldn’t be sleeping with.

BatmansBat · 08/08/2021 18:07

I think it is beyond chilling to hear it expressed that homosexuals are “allowed” to only want to sleep with their own sex as long as they keep quiet about it. What is this, middle of last century?

Coming back to gay men, I remember when a friend of mine came out. He was about 20 and so scared about what we all would think. I remember his relief when he realised that we didn’t care. Obviously we cared about him and were happy for him, but we really couldn’t care less that he only was interested in dick.

I cannot imagine how traumatic it would have been if people had begun to tell him that this was a preference and that he not was allowed to exclude people with vaginas from his dating pool. Or if he did that he had to keep quiet about it.

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 08/08/2021 18:13

We can and will change the Law of the Land.

To say what? That lesbians who aren’t sufficiently enthusiastic about heterosexual sex will get sent for re-education until they learn to love penis? Because that’s what you sound like. As if your ideal would be some kind of version of Gilead with you lot as the ruling class & uncooperative lesbians forced to be Handmaids.

HestersSamplerofCarrots · 08/08/2021 18:18

Who is this person who has managed to so completely take control of this thread?

Millennia that women have been fighting this shit.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 08/08/2021 18:25

We can and will change the Law of the Land

Are you going to sue all the lesbians who refuse to accept trans women as sexual partners?
Do you think they will all suddenly be compelled by law to have sex with males?

Chickenyhead · 08/08/2021 18:26

@HestersSamplerofCarrots

Who is this person who has managed to so completely take control of this thread?

Millennia that women have been fighting this shit.

Bog standard hairy arsed man.
ErrolTheDragon · 08/08/2021 18:29

We can and will change the Law of the Land.

What? Remove not only the protected characteristics not only of sex, but also of sexual orientation? Confused any others you want to get rid of while you're about it?

Jorrris · 08/08/2021 18:34

We can and will change the Law of the Land.

Ha ha ha. The lengths desperate men will go to so they can get sex. Embarrassing for you.

How you gonna change the law of the land then? What's your strategy?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 08/08/2021 18:35

Follow up question. If lesbians aren't allowed to refuse to have relationships with transwomen, then what happens with all those other non-negotiables people place in their tinder profiles?

What about those men who put "No T**Fs" in their profiles. Are they obliged to go out with mumsnetters?

What if I put "no married men"? Am I being exclusionary then, too?

ErrolTheDragon · 08/08/2021 18:38

This stuff about 'exclusion' ...
There's nothing wrong with adding more diversity of 'spaces', why not do that? Why not leave spaces for homosexuals alone and add whatever queer/bi/homogenderal ones you require? I mean presumably noone thinks all 'spaces' have to include everyone?

PronounssheRa · 08/08/2021 18:40

This thread is wild

Not exactly, but I don't believe sexuality is strictly defined by genitals, gametes, or chromosomes either.

Fine, but don't deny, criticise, challenge or question anyone else's orientation otherwise you're nothing more than a bang average homephobe.

MissChanandlerBong22 · 08/08/2021 18:48

Every single person in our society has the right to decline to have sex with another person, for any reason whatsoever.

And frankly anyone who disagrees with that statement is a dangerous individual.

FloralBunting · 08/08/2021 18:50

TFW when you're not sure if it's worth engaging, and then a really egregious homophobic TRA openly says they want to change the law of the land and remove the protection homosexuals have from discrimination, and you just think 'Wow. That's a receipt worth having, I think'.

Thank you to every poster on FWR standing up to this and talking about it elsewhere. In years to come, when your kids ask you what you're proud of, you can damn well point to this kind of simple step up.

Flowers
HestersSamplerofCarrots · 08/08/2021 18:53

@Chickenyhead it just beggars belief

aliasundercover · 08/08/2021 19:02

Well, guess what. Too bad. You don't get to have that. You don't get to completely exclude trans women.
Ha! That's precisely what many of us are doing. There are groups being formed everywhere where nobody is allowed to join until they have been carefully vetted, and events that are invitation only.

The thing is 10 years ago most of us didn't care if the odd transperson turned up to our groups and events - they were nice and polite, and didn't cause any fuss. You and your fellow militants have ruined it for yourselves - we go out of our way to exclude you because of your rudeness and demands.

CardinalLolzy · 08/08/2021 19:05

Fair play to blue - "That's actually how biology works" has given me the biggest actual laugh of the day.
I'm beginning to think Poe's law is coming into play... right? Wink

BluebirdsRequiem · 08/08/2021 19:09

@Whatsnewpussyhat

We can and will change the Law of the Land

Are you going to sue all the lesbians who refuse to accept trans women as sexual partners?
Do you think they will all suddenly be compelled by law to have sex with males?

Who said anything about sex? You would simply be charged with a hate crime for misgendering trans women as "males", that's all. 🙂
TalkingOutYerArse · 08/08/2021 19:10

@FloralBunting

TFW when you're not sure if it's worth engaging, and then a really egregious homophobic TRA openly says they want to change the law of the land and remove the protection homosexuals have from discrimination, and you just think 'Wow. That's a receipt worth having, I think'.

Thank you to every poster on FWR standing up to this and talking about it elsewhere. In years to come, when your kids ask you what you're proud of, you can damn well point to this kind of simple step up.

Flowers

With you all the way Floral! Not a chance in hell are my kids growing up to think that this bullshit is in any way acceptable.
Artichokeleaves · 08/08/2021 19:12

TW are male. That's the one fixed requirement to be able to be one.