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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Article with sums up where we are now

184 replies

happydays2345 · 07/08/2021 09:45

I found this article online, and thought I would share it.

It sums up brilliantly where we are now! 😊

aninjusticemag.com/mumsnet-how-poor-moderation-created-a-transphobic-swamp-adf391ccf9fc

OP posts:
Faceicle · 08/08/2021 05:30

Hi OP! I've read the article. I can't see any argument as to what trans positive as a viewpoint actually entails and how it manifests. Would you be able to elaborate please? My expectation is that it is indistinguishable from what the vast majority of feminists on mumsnet want regarding the well being of people who are trans.

I'm very excited about this OP. I think that there's a real chance to acknowledge the common ground that we both hold. So how about you let us know what you actually want and we'll take it from there? Oh and you don't need to refer to what you think about our position is as that's clear enough and has been stated very many times over very many years.

Are you willing or able to do this op?

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 08/08/2021 06:38

I had a quick skim of an AS of FWR between 2010 and 2012

Exactly. It is such a surprise to see that so many of the same issues are current. E.g., the moderation, people complaining that the feminism wasn't 'lite' enough and they were excluded.

As several PPs observe, a number of posters have changed their minds:
– on exposure to what was predicted;
– because reading and discussion with reflection has changed minds.

Ideologies with such far-reaching effects must be coherent enough to stand scrutiny. I still find it hard to accept that this particular one has created this degree of chaos after so much was correctly anticipated at the time GRA 2004 was discussed in the House of Lords.

And there were people at the time of the McPherson Report who astutely predicted what would happen if perception were accepted as the criterion for hate crimes/incidents. (NB: I'm not sure that McPherson had anything else available as a strategy, given the circumstances prevailing at the time, police culture, and the context of the Stephen Lawrence injustice. I would like to know if the creation of 'hate crimes' has helped the people it was intended to protect by changing the police response and level of service.)

R0wantrees · 08/08/2021 08:15

Have you considered properly engaging with why that changed? And no, blaming Louis Theroux doesn't pass muster, any more than blaming shadowy far right Americans

One of the more interesting things about the thread R0 dug up is that I recognise many usernames, who have since developed quite a different point of view. In this case, I use the word "developed" very deliberately, because their posts today on the subject are far more sophisticated than their posts of yore. In short, the women of mumsnet seem to have gone away and educated themselves.

I noticed the same. Many women on the 2012 thread attributed their belief that a female FE student had a legal right to use the college's male toilets and be treated as a male or all purposes to training they had received and/or their understanding of the law. We are now better aware how misrepresentations of the law shaped policies and training as well as the implications for children and women.

Women (and some men) have not only educated themelves, they have reflected, examined and tested the basis of their beliefs, having open-mindedness and humility to realise the mistakes.

It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so. Anon

The demand for certainty is one which is natural to man, but is nevertheless an intellectual vice. Bertrand Russell

R0wantrees · 08/08/2021 08:16

Apologies for typo, should read,
be treated as a male for all purposes to training

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/08/2021 08:22

Well that's off to a good start. I mean FFS not even bothering to check where in London and what kind of thing is pretty pathetic.

And that it was an outdoor swimming pool which would be a tad chilly in March, though I'm sure there are die hards.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/08/2021 08:25

And badly researched, too. The main problem lies in the author's inability to understand the site. Particularly in that FWR is one of many messageboards and one that also existed in those supposedly golden days of lovely affirming Mumsnet.

These people don't care about accuracy, and nor do their readers. They just want more propaganda to shore up their position.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/08/2021 08:27

This was a wonderful talk. Hannah is incredibly brave

It was a great meeting, I was there. Catia Freitas' speech was also very moving.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/08/2021 08:33

I find this really a little - isn't it kind of naval gazing for what is supposed to be academic work?

I thought the same. These people really need to get a grip, and examine their own cognitive biases. I've read disgusting stuff about women in MRA etc forums, Reddit. Some men hate women. Not everyone believes TWAW. News at 11.

R0wantrees · 08/08/2021 08:40

The infantilisation (or self-infantilisation) is one aspect of some trans activists that I am constantly surprised by. It feeds into the ‘most vulnerable’ aspect. And this constant need that ‘safety’ includes only reading or viewing affirming content.

Young people with specific vulnerabilities are drawn into communities (online and academic) and exposed to respected 'elders' who teach that dissenting voices seek to "exterminate" those who identify as 'trans'. Black and white thinking is encouraged in those already that way inclined for a range of reasons (including age).
The false attributation of malign motive to women informed by and informing Radical Feminist analysis is striking.

'How Did TERFs Become So Powerful In Britain?'
Rebecca Jane Morgan
Jan 15
(extract)
"If there is such a thing as a definitive expression of ‘TERF’ ideology, American feminist Janice Raymond’s The Transsexual Empire: The Making of the She-Male (1979) is a strong contender. Trans writers Susan Stryker and Stephen Whittle argue that it ‘did more to justify and perpetuate [anti-trans prejudice] than perhaps any other book ever written.’ In its sheer ability to do harm, they go so far as to compare it to The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, an anti-Semitic hoax that did much to fuel the Nazi conspiracy machine.⁵

Raymond’s language is deliberately incendiary. She accuses trans women of being ‘yet another face of patriarchy’ and sees them as part of a conspiracy to infiltrate and obliterate cis women’s spaces. In this sense, Raymond contends, ‘he [sic] performs total rape,’⁶ and the only correct response was ‘morally mandating it out of existence’.⁷ Like most exclusionary feminists, Raymond had little to say about trans men, who are typically regarded by such authors as ‘poor oppressed women’⁸ suffering from ‘false consciousness,’⁹ or as seeking an easy way out of oppression by ‘joining the caste of men.’¹⁰ Since they are not seen to ‘invade’ women’s spaces, they are usually spared the attribution of malevolence reserved for trans women.
Raymond’s influence in Britain is contested. On the one hand, feminist journalist Jane Fae writes that Transsexual Empire ‘attracted little attention in the UK’ and was ‘little more than a footnote’.¹¹ On the other hand, Stephen Whittle, a founding member of the British trans activist movement, recalls a sharp change in feminist attitudes in 1979. From being ‘listened to’ prior to the publication of Raymond’s book, he felt a sudden shift towards feminists seeing trans people as ‘co-conspirators in an attempt by men to possess [women] and to remake them in a mould that suits them.’¹² British sociologist Carol Riddell, meanwhile, felt that Transsexual Empire was a ‘dangerous book’ that made it ‘more problematic’ for trans women to be visible in the women’s movement.¹³" (continues)
aninjusticemag.com/how-did-trans-exclusionary-feminism-become-so-powerful-in-britain-77275d77c632

Feminist Current
OCTOBER 16, 2020
PODCAST: The Transsexual Empire revisited — Janice Raymond on transgenderism, yesterday and today
by MEGHAN MURPHY
(extract)
"In 1979, Janice Raymond published The Transsexual Empire, the first and probably most well-known book articulating a radical feminist analysis of transgenderism. Little did we know, 40 years later, trans activism would become the biggest threat to feminism in decades. She warned us all, early on, and now we are living it: watching women’s sex based right be eroded in order to accommodate gender identity legislation. So much of Raymond’s analysis could have been written today. But it wasn’t

I spoke with Janice recently about the book, how it was received then vs how it is discussed today, the backlash, what we are up against now, and how we can fight back."

www.feministcurrent.com/2020/10/16/podcast-the-transsexual-empire-revisited-janice-raymond-on-transgenderism-yesterday-and-today/

Open access copy of Raymond's book, 'The Transsexual Empire' is available on her website: janiceraymond.com/

R0wantrees · 08/08/2021 09:01

Atlantic
Having thus decided to research anti-trans ideologies, the next question was how to do so without putting undue strain on my mental wellbeing. I understood from the outset that reading thousands of pages of material that questions my right to exist, processing it, and then making scholarly sense of it would inevitably be an emotionally laborious endeavour, and not one to be taken lightly."

Atlantic
'THE CODDLING OF THE AMERICAN MIND
In the name of emotional well-being, college students are increasingly demanding protection from words and ideas they don’t like. Here’s why that’s disastrous for education—and mental health.'

By Greg Lukianoff and Jonathan Haidt
SEPTEMBER 2015 ISSUE

(extract)
"The press has typically described these developments as a resurgence of political correctness. That’s partly right, although there are important differences between what’s happening now and what happened in the 1980s and ’90s. That movement sought to restrict speech (specifically hate speech aimed at marginalized groups), but it also challenged the literary, philosophical, and historical canon, seeking to widen it by including more-diverse perspectives. The current movement is largely about emotional well-being. More than the last, it presumes an extraordinary fragility of the collegiate psyche, and therefore elevates the goal of protecting students from psychological harm. The ultimate aim, it seems, is to turn campuses into “safe spaces” where young adults are shielded from words and ideas that make some uncomfortable. And more than the last, this movement seeks to punish anyone who interferes with that aim, even accidentally. You might call this impulse vindictive protectiveness. It is creating a culture in which everyone must think twice before speaking up, lest they face charges of insensitivity, aggression, or worse. (continues)

There’s a saying common in education circles: Don’t teach students what to think; teach them how to think. The idea goes back at least as far as Socrates. Today, what we call the Socratic method is a way of teaching that fosters critical thinking, in part by encouraging students to question their own unexamined beliefs, as well as the received wisdom of those around them. Such questioning sometimes leads to discomfort, and even to anger, on the way to understanding.

But vindictive protectiveness teaches students to think in a very different way. It prepares them poorly for professional life, which often demands intellectual engagement with people and ideas one might find uncongenial or wrong. The harm may be more immediate, too. A campus culture devoted to policing speech and punishing speakers is likely to engender patterns of thought that are surprisingly similar to those long identified by cognitive behavioral therapists as causes of depression and anxiety. The new protectiveness may be teaching students to think pathologically."
(continues)
www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/399356/

LangClegsInSpace · 08/08/2021 12:10

EmbarrassingAdmissions - Dittany came back after those threads, she left in 2012 when there was a lot of nastiness and MNHQ last tried splitting FWR.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/1506544-FWR-split-continued

I wish she hadn't had all her posts withdrawn.

merrymouse · 08/08/2021 12:13

Can’t help thinking that anyone who would characterise discussions of schools/education on mumsnet as ‘innocuous’ hasn’t really grasped the nature of the site…

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 08/08/2021 12:17

@merrymouse

Can’t help thinking that anyone who would characterise discussions of schools/education on mumsnet as ‘innocuous’ hasn’t really grasped the nature of the site…
India Willoughby was very shocked to find out MN wasn’t just about pushchairs & lipstick. I think that’s because this is what ‘cis’ women, especially ones with kids, are supposed to talk about. And they struggle so hard with us because we don’t fit their nice Stepfordy stereotypes.
EmbarrassingAdmissions · 08/08/2021 12:57

@LangClegsInSpace

EmbarrassingAdmissions - Dittany came back after those threads, she left in 2012 when there was a lot of nastiness and MNHQ last tried splitting FWR.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/1506544-FWR-split-continued

I wish she hadn't had all her posts withdrawn.

Same old. Same old.

Can someone, anyone, explain why the rad-fems are seen as shutting down debate but those who are actively seeking their muzzling are not seen as shutting down debate?

Either this is personal attack on individual posters.

Or it is group attack on 'radfems' as nasty people who need fenced off from the reasonable folks.

Either way it is unpleasant.

Problems that social media platforms have not resolved to this day.

Agreed on the withdrawn posts (from several posters). Understandable but deeply regrettable at this distance.

Notable, of course, that the splitting into 'chat', 'theory' etc. was a non-starter - particularly after losing some of the active participants.

PrincessNutella · 08/08/2021 13:32

Golly, nine minutes to say "Shut up, Mom"

R0wantrees · 08/08/2021 14:08

India Willoughby was very shocked to find out MN wasn’t just about pushchairs & lipstick. I think that’s because this is what ‘cis’ women, especially ones with kids, are supposed to talk about. And they struggle so hard with us because we don’t fit their nice Stepfordy stereotypes.

This was shortly after Justine Roberts went public about the pressures by TRAs on MN to censor women's discussions.

'Mumsnet founder Justine Roberts: Transgender activists try to curb free speech on site'
Andrew Gilligan
Sunday Times April 15 2018
(extract)
The founder of Mumsnet says transgender “thought police” are pressurising advertisers to withdraw from Britain’s most popular parenting website because it allows the discussion of trans topics.

Justine Roberts said she had been approached by three significant advertisers who had been threatened by trans groups.

“Transgender activists have contacted Mumsnet advertisers and said they will be organising a boycott of their products if they don’t remove their advertising from Mumsnet,” Roberts said.

The website had told the advertisers that it “works hard to keep the discussions civil” and was determined to let them continue.

“What’s worrying to me is the thought-police action around speech and the shutting down of the right to be able to disagree and immediately labelling it as transphobic,” Roberts said.

The threats are the latest move in a campaign by transgender activists to inhibit discussion of potential legal changes that would allow people born male to self-identify as women.
Feminists say the plans threaten women’s rights and protected spaces. Trans activists say that to oppose them is bigotry. They have pressurised dozens of venues into cancelling meetings on the subject."(continues)
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mumsnet-founder-justine-roberts-transgender-activists-try-to-curb-free-speech-on-site-z3sr3nf6q
archive.ph/3OjLW

16th April 2018
Julia Hartley-Brewer: Major row erupts while talking about transgender activists and Mumsnet
interview with Justine Roberts and India Willoughby

India Willoughby for Pink News
'Britain’s rampant transphobia has me worried for my life'
APRIL 24, 2018
(extract)
"The Sunday Times, Daily Mail and – wait for it – Mumsnet – are hounding trans women in the same way Hitler went about stigmatising Jewish people.
Seriously. That’s no exaggeration.
The tabloids are no surprise, but Mumsnet?
Yeah, what is supposed to be a family-friendly parenting site has it’s claws out for the trans community.
And it all feels very orchestrated. (continues)

Justine is adamant there’s nothing transphobic on Mumsnet. Only reasoned debate. She wants transgender visitors to Mumsnet to be “happy and supported.” It feels reminiscent of when Cruella de Vil opens a home for stray dogs in 101 Dalmatians.
As I say, take a look for yourself. Trans groups are more than happy to debate any subject Justine or her murky corner of the web wants – but the material on the site isn’t a discussion. It’s vicious, nasty persecution
Mumsnet’s reputation for transphobia is fully deserved. Hardliners openly strategise ways to make life tougher for trans people: Passengers warned not to travel on sleeper trains because they might end up in the same sleeping berth as a woman who’s trans. Support gathered to stop trans women being allowed on Labour’s all-women shortlists. National meeting organised where they can clap and cheer their hatred.
It’s all very similar to the way the National Front used to operate.
I’m sure most people who use the site are decent folk. They want nothing to do with the rabid mouth-frothing going on by so-called “feminists.” (continues)

Last week was my first ever visit to Mumsnet. Honestly, I thought it was going to be lots of stuff about prams, or family-related matters. A sort of online This Morning minus Phil and Holly. The reality is more like a Nuremberg Rally. It’s very scary." (continues)

archive.ph/GB8bv

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 08/08/2021 14:18

The reality is more like a Nuremberg Rally. It’s very scary.

When key opinion leaders (or those who are appointed as such by interviewed for MSM) are uncorrected in their hyperbole, it's hardly surprising that the general public has little idea of what the reality is. But the damage is, of course, to those people who believe such accounts and are induced to be fearful of personal relationships and society as a whole.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 08/08/2021 14:21

OP never came back then? A male who wants to berate women but is unable to engage with them

How incredibly novel

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 08/08/2021 14:22

A lot of interesting and informative comments, as always. I’m glad this thread is going to be shown to trans supporters who would not otherwise read anything about feminism. Even if the intention is hostile, simple honest words may get through to some of them.

jellyfrizz · 08/08/2021 14:43

As a non-binary trans woman

I’m not understanding this. How are you non-binary if you call yourself a woman?

CardinalLolzy · 08/08/2021 14:54

Dunno, I was sort of wondering that too, but also I've thought for some time that I might be a NB trans woman.

The NHS definition of non-binary includes a definition that applies to me ("Some people do not define themselves as having a "binary" identity. For them the concept of gender is not relevant to their identity. They may use different terms, such as agender, gender diverse, gender non-conforming, to describe their identity. However, as a group, they are often called "non-binary".") - NB is under the trans umbrella, so by default being NB is being trans, and I'm a woman by birth, if not by stereotypes.

R0wantrees · 08/08/2021 15:01

I’m not understanding this. How are you non-binary if you call yourself a woman?

It simply means a male person who having identified as 'trans woman' does not present in a feminine maner and/or have medical interventions.

Jess Bradley (former NUS Trans officer) identified as a 'non binary trans woman'

"The first time I changed the world was when I told my mates to call me she rather than he. I literally constructed a new world where its possible to understand myself as a genderqueer woman, despite being asigned male at birth simply by changing the language to describe myself. This is why language and pronouns are so important. Its about creating a world in which trans people are allowed to exist"

Jess Bradley 'To My Trans Sisters'
edited by Charlie Craggs (publ Oct 2017)

relevant threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3626735-Update-on-the-Jess-Bradley-position

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3520762-Jess-Bradley-government-advisor-and-suspended-NUS-Trans-Officer-Part-iv

merrymouse · 08/08/2021 15:07

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

OP never came back then? A male who wants to berate women but is unable to engage with them

How incredibly novel

And addressing posters as ‘ladies’. Really very little has changed since 2012.
Helleofabore · 08/08/2021 15:11

OP never came back then? A male who wants to berate women but is unable to engage with them

It is their established style.

merrymouse · 08/08/2021 15:25

I’m sure most people who use the site are decent folk. They want nothing to do with the rabid mouth-frothing going on by so-called “feminists.”

Has clearly never followed a thread on cyclist’s rights, baby led weaning, phonics, dogs on leads, boarding schools/grammar schools/private schools/church schools, or loo brushes.

And that’s before you even think about Brexit or Covid.

These boards seem so one sided because of the lack of informed argument from parties with a different view.