Article with sums up where we are now

[happydays2345]

I found this article online, and thought I would share it.

It sums up brilliantly where we are now! 😊

aninjusticemag.com/mumsnet-how-poor-moderation-created-a-transphobic-swamp-adf391ccf9fc

I usually charge for coaching. But this is so dire, I just have to give the writer some advice. It may seem odd that I’m trying to sharpen my opponents’ weapons. But, like most feminists I know, I actually want a reasoned debate.

First, if you want to be taken seriously, you don’t fill an ‘investigative’ report with insulting language. Making your bias so obvious reduces the credibility of your research.

Actually, I’ll leave it at that one point. It’s a major one.

Welcome @NoHunGosh

I feel just the same way as you do. Apart from the biological issues which relates to the female biology (period pains, pregnancy and birth complications, menopause) there are so many roles women are expected to fill. And whilst we are doing all that work, we tend to go part time, make less money and end up with poor pensions.

I remember discussing Covid with a Transwoman or TRA here and stating that I would be very happy to read, discuss and sympathise with any transwoman who had juggled work, home and homeschooling during Covid. That was a terrible burden which mainly fell on women. Nobody ever got back to me, not even with a link to Twitter or a blog. It seems that particular burden didn’t fall on Transwomen to the same extent that it fell on biological women.

Lol at the 'baseless and ultimately conspiratorial claim' that the trans rights movement 'offers cover to sexual predators'. I WISH we were making it all up.

Just scroll womenarehuman.com for a delightful sampling of predators who are using the trans rights movement for cover.

Of course, you'll claim the website is all lies because you don't like the language used, even though the claims and stories are backed up with evidence.

Stop gaslighting us, OP. We see it and we keep seeing it. Male predators are pretending to be trans to get access to victims. It's offensive to women to pretend these predators are female and it's offensive to trans people to pretend these predators are actually trans.

Also have a look at theysaythisneverhappens.tumblr.com/ or m.facebook.com/groups/1722756661380462/

And then tell us again how we are conspiracy theories for agreeing that self-ID type policies can lead and have led to predators taking advantage.

*theorists

I exclude myself now that I realise that my intent to do that has been compromised by my hegemonic oppression in re: forms of argument that invite useful scrutiny.

I also have to exclude myself (well MNHQ deleted me) for being facetious about my response to being referred to as "ladies" - my absolutely serious response is that - well, yes, you can call me by my birth title which I don't ever use, because I prefer the title I've earned to the one bestowed on me by patriarchy ...

I really hate "Lady" or 'ladies". And I judge any man - and most women - who use it.

cor, that article is piss poor innit?

can't be arsed to address it much, but I do note that the author seems to consider Twitter a site that cheerfully hosts pictures of a woman's breasts nailed to a table as better moderated than Mumsnet. criminy

@NoHunGosh utterly brilliant list! Thank you.

Not RTFT but opened the article.

First thing said:

'In March 2018, a small group of cisgender feminists gathered at a south London swimming pool, announced that they ‘self-identify’ as men, and gate-crashed a men-only event.¹ Some wore fake beards. The pool’s regular patrons were more confused than outraged.'

North London
Ponds not swimming pool
Was not a 'men only event'

Oh and I note they've assumed gender of both the Feminists and the men!!!!

Well that's off to a good start. I mean FFS not even bothering to check where in London and what kind of thing is pretty pathetic.

Can't wait to read more! From the fact the very first bit is completely wrong. I'm not going to be super confident in other 'facts' in it TBH!!!

'constructive debate requires some basic standards for factual accuracy and accountability'

HAMPSTEAD PONDS ARE IN NORTH LONDON AND ARE NOT A SWIMMING POOL!!!

(Unless I've missed a remarkably similar situation? I've never seen a pool have a men only event though. Unless this pool in South London is in a gay gym? Maybe ).

Oops got to the end!

Retract all that!

Apols to author.

HAMPSTEAD PONDS ARE IN NORTH LONDON AND ARE NOT A SWIMMING POOL!!!

R0 has covered those flaws, with references to accurate accounts of what happened, on pg4.

NiceGerbil The first #ManFriday action was at Dulwich Leisure centre in March 2018. A woman did the same at that time in Manchester (I believe). The Hampstead ponds action followed in May.

(extract)
"First transgender activists made a splash when men identifying as female invaded the women-only pond on Hampstead Heath.

Now feminists have hit back by attending a men-only swimming session in protest over proposals that would make it easier for people to change gender.

Amy Desir, 30 – one of two women to gain access to the South London pool last Friday – caused particular consternation by wearing just trunks and a pink swimming cap." (continues)

Hannah emailed the leisure centre in advance to ask what arrangements were in place for a woman who self-identified as male.

General manager Natalie Lane told her: ‘Any customer is free to use the changing room they feel necessary for themselves. We do our best to avoid modern prejudices. However, opinions vary given the diversity of our customer base.

‘If you wish to attend the Friday evening sessions you would do so with the full support of the team.’ (continues)

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5514231/Feminists-self-identify-males-infiltrate-men-swim-session.html

Hannah Clarke
#ManFriday
A Woman's Place is to be Inquiring: Hannah Clarke (Basingstoke 17 May 2018)

I find their timeline very odd.

I've been here for um 16 years maybe.

The first dates 2008-2013 this topic was not at all well known generally. I can't remember when threads about it started appearing but I'm pretty sure it was after fwr board was created and small in number, taking a long time for the topic to gain more traction. In Feminism. It's a long time ago but I can't remember it was across chat etc much really.

Then Apparently what turned all the mums off babies and into bigotry was Louis theroux. It's all his fault.

I've watched a lot of his documentaries over the years and his style is extremely effective.

He is calm, non threatening. He asks open questions and then lets people talk. He relaxes them and his questions genuinely come from an interest in the people. What they believe how they feel. Why.

The result is people open up and answer in a usually unguarded way.

In general he gives the subject front stage and lets them tell their own story.

I think I saw that documentary and I remember feeling a bit sad for the children. Maybe I should watch it again.

The suggestion is that overnight the women/ mothers of the UK turned into people consumed by hatred because of Louis theroux?!

Yes sorry I wanted to read the piece first and then got over excited!

I'm in North London and we're a bit local round here! We have a very strong identity related to our stamping ground

I'll read the thread now sorry.

'Fears were also raised about single-sex spaces, particularly the possibility that ‘a big hairy man with a functional penis between his legs’ could enter a women’s bathroom.'

Confused.

Is the problem with that statement that it should say woman rather than man?

cor, that article is piss poor innit?

And badly researched, too. The main problem lies in the author's inability to understand the site. Particularly in that FWR is one of many messageboards and one that also existed in those supposedly golden days of lovely affirming Mumsnet.

For instance the author writes:

A thread from October 2012 asking which bathroom a trans child should use was met with multiple expressions of disbelief that the question even had to be asked: obviously, users concluded, the child should use the bathroom that aligns with their self-expressed identity.⁶

This quote refers to a discussion in 2012 on AIBU as proof that back then Mumsnet was a place where the majority of threads regarding trans issues were positive.

This is the thread in question:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1591015-Which-toilets-a-F-to-M-transgender-student-should-use

(As an aside, I don't understand why the author gives web addresses for the other references, but not one for the Mumsnet sources. These threads only showed up in a Google search for me and not on a Mumsnet search, so I am uncharitably wondering whether this is an attempt to make checking the author's claims regarding these old Mumsnet threads too cumbersome to bother with for Mumsnetters. But even at my most charitable I detest such shoddy referencing.)

Reading that AIBU thread now, two things are obvious: the first is that there is little regard given by most posters to the safeguarding duties of the college in deciding whether to allow a female 16 year old student to use the male toilets, the second is that the following comment shows that even back then FWR was known for insisting that women had a right to single-sex provisions:

I get where Kim147 is coming from. Switch the genders around and ask this question on the FWR boards and you will see why so many people do not identify with 'feminists'.

So if FWR even back then had women speaking up for single-sex provisions, and was derided for it by posters on AIBU, the real question is not how "poor moderation created a transphobic swamp" but what happened in the years since that led to FWR gaining such prominence and AIBU to flip from the majority of posters detesting the 'feminists' on FWR to agreeing with them.

Moderation has grown increasingly restrictive for those posters on FWR speaking out in defence of women's sex-based rights. (I don't want to discuss the whys or hows here, it's simply a fact that the guidelines are now some of the most prohibitive on the entire site.)

And yet, more and more women from outside of Mumsnet are coming here to looking for answers. Explicitly so. And they still find them, despite the strict guidelines. Like I did in 2017.

If I was researching the issue, I would want to know why that is.

I love the way that women thinking it's a bad idea to have males in the limited number of situations that (used to be) single sex

Is extremism.

The real problem with MN here is that it's-

Got a massive amount of traffic, a pretty broad variety of readers and posters across the UK due to its reputation as a good place for info, most current is by women for women. Hard to say it's a handful of (insert subsection here).

That the majority of posters are women, often mothers. Not a group generally thought of as radical extremists. Possibly because they don't have time!

Anyone can join and post.

You cannot edit or delete posts. You can't block. It's all there. If you get in a debate (argument) and say silly things etc it's usually there for good.

MN have hosted this topic when they didn't have to.

I have an ambivalent opinion of MN moderation policy but the URL of this topic says 'Women's Rights' and this topic is called 'Feminism' and I am always glad when women feel able to come here and express their opinions. I'm even more glad when men disapprove because it indicates that women's opinions are important enough to cause change.

Feel free to screenshot

[quote R0wantrees]Hannah Clarke
#ManFriday
A Woman's Place is to be Inquiring: Hannah Clarke (Basingstoke 17 May 2018)

[/quote] This was a wonderful talk. Hannah is incredibly brave

For instance the author writes:

A thread from October 2012 asking which bathroom a trans child should use was met with multiple expressions of disbelief that the question even had to be asked: obviously, users concluded, the child should use the bathroom that aligns with their self-expressed identity.⁶

This quote refers to a discussion in 2012 on AIBU as proof that back then Mumsnet was a place where the majority of threads regarding trans issues were positive.

The difference in atitudes between AIBU posters and those on Feminism & Women's Rights board is referred to on the 2012 thread. Also, that at the time it was a significant topic of discussion, eg

"Not everyone on the FWR board takes the attitude MtF transgender people should be excluded from women's spaces, by any stretch of the imagination. If they did, that topic would not be an area of huge controversy on that board."

You cannot edit or delete posts. You can't block.

tbh, I'd welcome 2 of those (edit and block - especially if the latter has words on which to block). The edit should have an audit trail, of course.