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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Article with sums up where we are now

184 replies

happydays2345 · 07/08/2021 09:45

I found this article online, and thought I would share it.

It sums up brilliantly where we are now! 😊

aninjusticemag.com/mumsnet-how-poor-moderation-created-a-transphobic-swamp-adf391ccf9fc

OP posts:
RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 07/08/2021 16:04

@Chickenyhead

Oh it's OK for OP to be goady #MNHQ allow it.
Yep

To be fair i think it would be absolutely fine if the OP wanted an actual discussion…thats also what MNHQ want I’m sure

But thats quite obviously NOT the case with this thread

Chickenyhead · 07/08/2021 16:17

This OP never wants discussion. It's always goady nonsense. DARVO.

Helleofabore · 07/08/2021 16:20

This OP never wants discussion

No. They are quite well known not to be.

ScoldsBridle · 07/08/2021 16:36

2015 is where it all started going wrong. We watched the Louis Theroux documentary on trans children and thus started the radicalisation. The author is a PhD student and a ‘historian of queer identities’. Xe has done at least a couple of hours on the Advanced Search for some very thorough desk research so don’t knock it.

Giggorata · 07/08/2021 16:37

Well,that was two minutes (not nine) of my life that I won't get back.
No thank you

Jorrris · 07/08/2021 16:37

It's because they know they can't debate their position. Because the position they have taken has no rational debate. Thus the only option available to them is to plop and run.

Jorrris · 07/08/2021 16:38

historian of queer identities’

Ha ha ha

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 07/08/2021 16:41

It sums up brilliantly where we are now

Dunno where the ‘we comes from either

Helleofabore · 07/08/2021 16:42

a habitual plopper? yep.

eurochick · 07/08/2021 16:44

#NoThankYou

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 07/08/2021 16:57

@Jorrris

historian of queer identities’

Ha ha ha

I watched an online interview with Fern Riddell in re her book: Sex: Lessons From History

It was pretty irritating concerning the number of items she and her interviewer (to be fair) considered to be previously unknown until Riddell discovered them in an archive. Hmm (I do, of course, understand that any interview would be tedious if they used appropriate disclaimers at every point but it would be helpful to have one at the outset of the interview.)

A fair amount of the discussion was, of course, taken up with her coverage of previously unknown queer histories. Because of all the things that previous historians were egregiously wrong about, none of this was known before her scholarship (I paraphrase) and there is definitely no scintilla of error nor any apprehension that Riddell might be interpreting items through a lens of contemporary mores.

I am interested to see that one of these figures Riddell discussed has been given 'they/them' pronouns by wikipedia and that the Beaumont Society (founded in the 1960s) reflects the name.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevalier_d%27%C3%89on

R0wantrees · 07/08/2021 16:58

From the author's bio,

"Rebecca Jane Morgan
Historian of modern Britain, popular culture, and queer identities. PhD student, trans activist"

A PhD British history student should recognise the importance of historical accuracy and be capable of basic research.

(extract)
In March 2018, a small group of cisgender feminists gathered at a south London swimming pool, announced that they ‘self-identify’ as men, and gate-crashed a men-only event.¹ Some wore fake beards. The pool’s regular patrons were more confused than outraged.
The group had met and organised the stunt on the Mumsnet message boards. It was intended as a protest against trans women using women-only spaces, and, more generally, against potential reforms to the UK’s Gender Recognition Act 2004 that would enable people to self-identify their legal gender. (continues)

There are a number of factual inaccuracies.
The action at Dulwich swimming pool was carried out by two women, Amy Desir and Hannah Clarke, in protest against Swim England's self id policy. The policy was discussed with the leisure centre management beforehand. Neither wore a beard. Amy Desir wore a pink hat. Swim England's policy was withdrawn shortly afterwards.

On Spring Bank Holiday (May28th 2018) ten women identifying as men for the day used the Hampstead Heath men's pond. Some women wore beards.

June 5th 2018 Government responded to the petition by #ManFriday and other grassroots women's groups. It committed to a consultation on self-id and that no changes would be made to the Equality Act provision for single sex spaces.
petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/214118

None of the women involved are 'cisgender'

MARK WOOD and JOANI WALSH FOR THE MAIL ON SUNDAY
18th March 2018
"Feminists 'self-identify' as males... to infiltrate men-only swim session
Women hit back over proposals to make it easier for people to change gender
Amy Desir wore just trunks and pink cap to swim session at south London pool
Another woman told staff she had every right to join session because she 'identified as male'
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5514231/Feminists-self-identify-males-infiltrate-men-swim-session.html

June 1st 2018
"The Battle of Hampstead Ponds: Meet the women who are willing to don mankinis and fake beards to protest against rules that let men say they're female and use the ladies' changing rooms
Ten women gatecrashed male-only bathing pond in North London this week
It was the most decorous of invasions. They were not strident or impolite
Their method of drawing attention to their cause was a novel one
They said they were ‘identifying’ as men for the day to highlight problems"

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5796701/Hampstead-ponds-row-continues-transgender-demands-going-far.html

Hannah Clarke
text of the speech made by ManFriday’s Media Officer at a Women’s Place UK meeting on 17th May 2018.

(extract)
"I’ve called ManFriday a movement, I think a better word might be concept. We are a loosely organised group of women who are horrified by the implications of self identification and the resultant erasure of women. We are making a stand against what is happening by self identifying as men on Fridays. We show how preposterous it is to be able to self-declare as the opposite sex by doing exactly that.

This all came about when Amy Desir took it upon herself to address the ludicrous guidance Swim England produced to engage trans people in swimming. This guidance, soundly rejected by the good ladies of Mumsnet, included such gems as telling us women who object to penises in their changing rooms require education, whilst our boobs should be covered at all times for fear of causing offence. Amy started a Mumsnet thread one Friday morning in February telling us that she had arranged a meeting at her local pool to discuss her inclusion in men only swimming sessions as a self identified man in accordance with the guidance.

This thread inspired a whole lot of us – around 160 at the last count – to get behind the concept and thus ManFriday was born. We started with a Facebook page where we plan our protests and share resources and now have a website, a very active (and funny) twitter account, and a whole load of unconnected women joining in on Twitter every Friday using the hashtag ManFriday.

I joined after seeing Amy’s thread coincided with me wanting to be able to do something. I had attended the Woman’s Place meeting in London in February and was in awe of all the women there. I was too shy to put my hand up and talk – I didn’t feel like I had anything to say at all, but I think might make up for that now." (continues)
manfridayuk.org/2018/05/18/why-manfriday/

MonsignorMirth · 07/08/2021 16:59

Does plopping and not engaging with any points raised constitute "civility", or being "in the spirit", I wonder?

R0wantrees · 07/08/2021 17:22

It sums up brilliantly where we are now!

I disagree with the OP's assessment of brilliance.

(extract from article in OP)
As weird and comical as it seems at face value, the swimming pool caper was merely the most attention-grabbing episode in a long history of anti-trans agitation on one of the most innocuously-named websites on the Internet. Founded in 2000, Mumsnet is theoretically a parenting resource website where parents can discuss anything from baby food and schools to mental health and jobs.

Mumsnet has a long history of effective campaigns focussed on women and children including 'Let Toys Be Toys' and 'We Can't Consent to This'.
www.lettoysbetoys.org.uk/
wecantconsenttothis.uk/

A Woman's Place is reading: The Politicization of Mumsnet (Sarah Pedersen & Selina Todd 22 Nov 2020)

"Sarah Pedersen is Professor of Communication and Media at Robert Gordon University
Professor Sarah Pedersen's book investigates the growing politicization of the online parenting forum Mumsnet and its use by politicians to try to influence middle-class women in the UK. The site's discussion topics go far beyond traditional 'mothering' subjects and encompass politics, feminism and current affairs. Understood as a safe space for gender-critical voices, the site has spawned real-life activism and continues to be both praised and attacked for its support of free speech on controversial subjects. Professor Pedersen examines how Mumsnet has become a central part of a resurgent women's rights movement in the UK. She argues that its openness to discussion around this subject has allowed the site to function as a subaltern counter-public - a space where gender-critical feminists have been able to share information and make plans for action and agitation."

Many of those new to the issues with self-id discussed on the feminism boards have found this thread useful:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

R0wantrees · 07/08/2021 17:53

(extract from Rebecca Jane Morgan's article in OP)

"The site is so synonymous with that ideology that public knowledge of its transphobia has been described as ‘conventional wisdom.’⁴"

Reference provided for this claim is Edie Miller's article in The Outline, ‘Why is British media so transphobic?’
5 November 2018. theoutline.com/post/6536/british-feminists-media-transphobic?zd=1&zi=iv74xdyn

Miller's hilarious article was discussed and fact checked at the time of publication,
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3415244-hilarious-article

It was also critiqued by Robert Jackman in The Spectator,
(extract)
"It’s true that transgender issues are frequently discussed on Mumsnet – but why assume this is down to bigotry, rather than the fact that many of these concerns (the housing of male sex offenders in women’s prisons, for example) resonate deeply with the women of Middle England?" (continues)
www.spectator.co.uk/article/mumsnet-and-the-british-media-aren-t-transphobic-

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3416273-The-Spectator-Mumsnet-and-the-British-media-aren-t-transphobic

merrymouse · 07/08/2021 18:00

Mumsnet is theoretically a parenting resource website where parents can discuss anything from baby food and schools to mental health and jobs.

And childbirth and IVF and contraception and abortions and miscarriage and breastfeeding and menopause and maternity rights and all those other annoyingly sex specific things.

NoHunGosh · 07/08/2021 18:18

I am officially delurking: never posted before on the Feminism chat boards before, came to MN during pregnancy 8 years ago and stayed etc etc...
Read the article and... well.. it's absolute tosh.
I don't see any Transphobia here on Mumsnet. What I do see are a lot of women who have experienced life as a biological woman and all the shitty end of the stick which that entails (periods, inappropriate advances from men as soon as you start getting breasts, threat of male violence as part of everyday life, the frigid/whore insults as soon as you become sexually active, the fear of unwanted pregnancy, the heartache of infertility, miscarriage, domestic violence, the shitty antenatal and postnatal care, the minimizing of birth injuries, the judgement over whether you breastfeed or formula feed, the judgement if you breastfeed too long, the judgement if you go back to work, the judgement if you are a stay at home parent, the never ending juggling of motherhood and employment, the being paid less than male counterparts, the expectations that you should be having sex with your partner even when you are knackered and in pain so they don't fuck off with some nubile younger model without stretchmarks, the never ending 'wife work' of organizing all the day to day shit in a family unit from laundry, to remembering birthdays, appointments, school crap, homework, playdates, getting everyone fed and clothed, teeth brushed..., the expectation to take on the day to day care of aging/ailing parents , helping out extended family, the every day physical crap of menopause and the fact that you just get dismissed by medical professionals as exaggerating pain, making a fuss etc etc etc). So... when I hear TWAW or 'I identify as a woman' I (and pretty much every biological woman I have ever asked) wants to know which particular bit of being a woman they are referring to because none of it seems to correlate with the lived experience of natal women

Jorrris · 07/08/2021 18:22

Welcome NoHunGosh

Chikenyhead · 07/08/2021 18:25

@NoHunGosh

I am officially delurking: never posted before on the Feminism chat boards before, came to MN during pregnancy 8 years ago and stayed etc etc... Read the article and... well.. it's absolute tosh. I don't see any Transphobia here on Mumsnet. What I do see are a lot of women who have experienced life as a biological woman and all the shitty end of the stick which that entails (periods, inappropriate advances from men as soon as you start getting breasts, threat of male violence as part of everyday life, the frigid/whore insults as soon as you become sexually active, the fear of unwanted pregnancy, the heartache of infertility, miscarriage, domestic violence, the shitty antenatal and postnatal care, the minimizing of birth injuries, the judgement over whether you breastfeed or formula feed, the judgement if you breastfeed too long, the judgement if you go back to work, the judgement if you are a stay at home parent, the never ending juggling of motherhood and employment, the being paid less than male counterparts, the expectations that you should be having sex with your partner even when you are knackered and in pain so they don't fuck off with some nubile younger model without stretchmarks, the never ending 'wife work' of organizing all the day to day shit in a family unit from laundry, to remembering birthdays, appointments, school crap, homework, playdates, getting everyone fed and clothed, teeth brushed..., the expectation to take on the day to day care of aging/ailing parents , helping out extended family, the every day physical crap of menopause and the fact that you just get dismissed by medical professionals as exaggerating pain, making a fuss etc etc etc). So... when I hear TWAW or 'I identify as a woman' I (and pretty much every biological woman I have ever asked) wants to know which particular bit of being a woman they are referring to because none of it seems to correlate with the lived experience of natal women
Well said!
Helleofabore · 07/08/2021 18:27

because none of it seems to correlate with the lived experience of natal women

Exactly right. And welcome!

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 07/08/2021 18:30

The most startling thing about that article is the claim it's a '9 min read'. Maybe TRAs have to say the long words out loud?

Beeee kiiind, Alias. Grin

JustSpeculation · 07/08/2021 18:32

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

I realise that my motivation is irrelevant when perspective is all. - I wonder if you have, however, highlighted a new non-crime incident around unthinking hegemonistic oppression

It's worth consideration. I'm sure winning an argument in the service of hegemony by underhand tactics such as coherent thought, clear argument and what have you is no win. There is no win in support of hate. And I've just realised it's "hegemonic" not "hegemonistic".

Bugger! That's what comes of trying to be clever.

It's feasible that a number of offenders such as myself would fail gulag reeducation because it is not enough to have a superficial civility when others claim to know our thoughts

No one ever got re-educated in a gulag. It's just somewhere to put you, and it works quite well for that.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 07/08/2021 18:50

Bugger! That's what comes of trying to be clever.

At the risk of lowering the tone after R0 's always fabulous archivist intervention, I thought you'd selected hegemonistic because I very much heard it in a Rocket tone (GOTG - the minutiae scene). Blush

Maybe they'll put me in the Biological Facts gulag.

dorasalter · 07/08/2021 19:44

@merrymouse What you said!
Brilliantly elaborated on by
@NoHunGosh Brilliantly put. I hope you keep posting. x

CharlieParley · 07/08/2021 20:43

Welcome NoHunGosh and thank you for that powerful comment. I too have noticed that it isn't women themselves and our lives that seem to be identified with but the idea of us and the idea of our lives. Which is one of the faultlines between women and those who wish to be women. And that springs out of that biggest faultline of all - the status of women in a male-dominated world.