Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

Deleted/censorship on mumsnet now!

777 replies

HermioneKipper · 06/08/2021 10:34

My thread asking about transwomen/transitioning/penises has been deleted.

Why are we not allowed to discuss this? It’s a genuine question and extremely relevant to the debate about transwomen entering female spaces.

There was no abuse of trans people that I could see aside from a few people attempting to derail by saying that they couldn’t see why women might be concerned about having to share their space!

This isn’t right

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Jorrris · 08/08/2021 13:16

Do adult women get to be in showers with teenage girls? I'd say that's kind of weird on its own right.

Well you would think that's weird wouldn't you. Because it doesn't fit in with your desire as a male to also be present.

Helleofabore · 08/08/2021 13:16

@Jorrris

Cool now tell me, why should we discriminate on the basis of sex any more than we discriminate on the basis of race.

Your racism is showing. Repulsive.

Yep!

They can never see the racism in they tactic can they? I wonder if they will even see it if we point it out?

BluebirdsSong · 08/08/2021 13:17

@Tibtom

Transwomen commit crimes at the same rate as other men.
Citation needed. You assuming that to be the case does not make it true by default.
BluebirdsSong · 08/08/2021 13:18

@Jorrris

Do adult women get to be in showers with teenage girls? I'd say that's kind of weird on its own right.

Well you would think that's weird wouldn't you. Because it doesn't fit in with your desire as a male to also be present.

Actually I just don't think adults should be naked with teenagers at all, regardless of sex.
R0wantrees · 08/08/2021 13:18

I lean towards single sex meaning no penises. But would be open to negotiation on a case by case basis.

It is utterly inappropriate to ask men if they have had genital surgeries/amputations and then deny that they are male sex in the event that they have.
Being female sex is not to be 'a person lacking a penis'. It is quite extraordinary to see such a claim posted on a feminism board in 2021.
When women say, "no is a complete sentence" this is in recognition that for many men women's refusal of consent is considered the beginning of a negotiation. This is not the case.

None of this however is new,

Jean O'Leary speech at 1973 Gay Rally

H/t PankhurstEM via her archive thread: twitter.com/PankhurstEM/status/1211654889228640257

FloralBunting · 08/08/2021 13:19

And racists argue that black people are a risk factor for white women and children, and that not having race-based segregation in place puts white people at a safety disadvantage.

Their arguments are rightfully disregarded.

Obviously. Because they have no evidence for such an assertion. Whereas the framework we use to judge risk is based on the evidence that men commit some 98% of all sexual and violent crime.

You're not very good at this, are you?

Datun · 08/08/2021 13:19

god this is embarrassingly poor level of ‘debate’ Blue

Yes it goes downhill now. But least we've managed to establish that certain people think that women who have been traumatised at the hands of men must be subject to men's self interested gatekeeping, sorry negotiation, when they are seeking recovery.

Off to buy some new sunglasses, these are getting worn out.

Ninkanink · 08/08/2021 13:19

Well guess what, our arguments have not been disregarded. We have protections in law and in society for very good reason. Women also overwhelmingly care for and protect those more vulnerable than ourselves - children, young people, those who are in need of refuge for whatever reason, and the elderly.

Anyone who actively seeks to break down the barriers put in place for protections of women and children is not a good and decent person.

Deliriumoftheendless · 08/08/2021 13:19

MRA/TRAs believe their opinion that no one gives a shit about women and children lead them to see every attempt at discussion by women to be motivated by hate towards trans people.

Because they think women and children are undeserving of right them leads them to see women seeking protection for themselves and children as hatred towards men/transpeople/themselves.

If you can’t accept women as people in our own right you’ll never believe we are motivated by concern for women and children.

Jorrris · 08/08/2021 13:19

Actually I just don't think adults should be naked with teenagers at all, regardless of sex.

I don't think men should be naked with women and girls. And really, as a male, you don't get that right.

Tibtom · 08/08/2021 13:21

BluebirdsSong are you arguing that everything should be mixed sex or that you should be allowed to watch girls undress in otherwise single sex spaces and it is akin to racism for those girls to object to getting undressed in front of you?

BluebirdsSong · 08/08/2021 13:23

@Deliriumoftheendless

MRA/TRAs believe their opinion that no one gives a shit about women and children lead them to see every attempt at discussion by women to be motivated by hate towards trans people.

Because they think women and children are undeserving of right them leads them to see women seeking protection for themselves and children as hatred towards men/transpeople/themselves.

If you can’t accept women as people in our own right you’ll never believe we are motivated by concern for women and children.

"Think of women and/or children" had been used against almost every single marginalized group in history.

There's a reason it's not the auto-win you think it is.

Waitwhat23 · 08/08/2021 13:23

@FloralBunting

And racists argue that black people are a risk factor for white women and children, and that not having race-based segregation in place puts white people at a safety disadvantage.

Their arguments are rightfully disregarded.

Obviously. Because they have no evidence for such an assertion. Whereas the framework we use to judge risk is based on the evidence that men commit some 98% of all sexual and violent crime.

You're not very good at this, are you?

This can't be repeated enough. There is evidence (I know, I know - dirty word to TRA's) supporting the need for single sex spaces.
Tibtom · 08/08/2021 13:24

That you think it is an automatic win shows how little you understand.

Jorrris · 08/08/2021 13:26

That you think it is an automatic win shows how little you understand.

Yep. Pathetic really.

Helleofabore · 08/08/2021 13:26

There's a reason it's not the auto-win you think it is.

Yes. Because history has some brilliant examples of failures of safeguarding.

And it seems that to you safeguarding should create yet another sacred group that should be excluded from safeguarding processes.

Deliriumoftheendless · 08/08/2021 13:27

So yet again disbelief that women care about themselves or children.

You don’t believe it.

You are wrong.

This is why laws have been developed. Which I’m sure you will counter with examples of historical racist laws.

Because you find the concept of women and children having rights as contemptible as racism.

BluebirdsSong · 08/08/2021 13:28

@Tibtom

BluebirdsSong are you arguing that everything should be mixed sex or that you should be allowed to watch girls undress in otherwise single sex spaces and it is akin to racism for those girls to object to getting undressed in front of you?
No, I'm arguing we should not discriminate against trans people.

And it's not "those girls" doing the objecting, because "those girls" are just a hypothetical non-entity that exists only to justify your argument in favor of anti-trans discrimination.

I think teenage girls shouldn't undress in front of adults at all. Whereas you, for some reason, seem adamant that teenage girls should undress in front of adults, but that it should be female adults only.

Deliriumoftheendless · 08/08/2021 13:29

And it isn’t meant to be a gotcha- I can’t change your misogyny. You think so little of women a woman will never change your mind.

It’s simply realising the to the bone disregard of women as people so wide spread in the finger waggers that has formed my opinions.

Well done! Now go tell some male dominated websites why they’re in the wrong.

BluebirdsSong · 08/08/2021 13:29

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

FluffyBattleKitten · 08/08/2021 13:30

Actually I just don't think adults should be naked with teenagers at all, regardless of sex.

Well that would automatically exclude all adults from most single sex environments.

My local mother and baby swimming pool has single sex. According to you the teens who also use that space whilst the female adults are changing, showering etc. shouldn't be there. As an educator, I can tell you that a teen only area is a bad idea. Teens on their own push boundaries and the fallout from that would likely be things that harmed the space, like vandalism or bullying.
No males are allowed in that space. The all ages females (plus infant boys) manage fine.

Deliriumoftheendless · 08/08/2021 13:30

Why? Why do you feel women and children don’t deserve rights over matters that concern them?

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 08/08/2021 13:31

Whereas you, for some reason, seem adamant that teenage girls should undress in front of adults, but that it should be female adults only

Big thread, ive missed where female posters are insisting that teenage girls should undress in front of them?

Where is it please?

Sophoclesthefox · 08/08/2021 13:31

Anyone who uses race segregation as a comparator to sex segregation hasn’t understood why either were put in place.

Race segregation: imposed by the dominant class (white) over the perceived subordinate class (black/other people of colour) against their will, for the benefit of the dominant class, to exclude the subordinate class from full participation in public life.

Sex segregation: requested and put in place by and for the perceived subordinate class (women) to offer some protection and respite from the dominant class(men), particularly in situations of vulnerability, to enable full participation in public life.

And you’re then arguing for mixed sex everything: sport, prison, refuges, loos, changing rooms. Which you’re allowed to do, but most people won’t support that.

Deliriumoftheendless · 08/08/2021 13:31

Do you genuinely feel mothers don’t care about their kids?