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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Deleted/censorship on mumsnet now!

777 replies

HermioneKipper · 06/08/2021 10:34

My thread asking about transwomen/transitioning/penises has been deleted.

Why are we not allowed to discuss this? It’s a genuine question and extremely relevant to the debate about transwomen entering female spaces.

There was no abuse of trans people that I could see aside from a few people attempting to derail by saying that they couldn’t see why women might be concerned about having to share their space!

This isn’t right

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
BluebirdsSong · 08/08/2021 13:32

@Deliriumoftheendless

Why? Why do you feel women and children don’t deserve rights over matters that concern them?
Bigots invoking "women and children" to discriminate does not make discrimination morally justifiable.
BluebirdsSong · 08/08/2021 13:33

@Deliriumoftheendless

Do you genuinely feel mothers don’t care about their kids?
I genuinely think claiming "it's about women and children" doesn't justify transphobia any more than it justifies homophobia or racism.
Ninkanink · 08/08/2021 13:33

And it's not "those girls" doing the objecting, because "those girls" are just a hypothetical non-entity that exists only to justify your argument in favor of anti-trans discrimination.

This just shows you to be a person who holds deeply vile ideas.

No. ‘Those girls’ are not hypothetical. We all have been those girls. We are parents to them, we know them. How dare you even say that. Vile.

Jorrris · 08/08/2021 13:34

No, I find transphobic bigotry backed up with "but what about women and children" to be just as contemptible as homophobia or racism acked up with "but what about women and children

I find your attitude quite contemptible to be honest. Male entitlement wanting to destroy women's boundaries. And a clear hatred of women. I can't see your life being great until you get some help with that. I guess you know that.

CardinalLolzy · 08/08/2021 13:34

No, I'm arguing we should not discriminate against trans people.

Explain specifically what you mean by "trans"? I don't think anyone is suggesting any segregation or discrimination based on whether someone is "trans" or not, are they? It's about sex.
Have you really misunderstood such a basic point? Oh dear.

Jorrris · 08/08/2021 13:36

We don't discriminate against transpeople. Transexuals are protected in the equality act. As is the classification of sex. Hope this helps.

BluebirdsSong · 08/08/2021 13:37

"Do you think gay men should get to watch teenage boys undress?"

That's what I see when you make those arguments about trans women. Every argument you make in favor of sex-segregated spaces could just as easily be an argument for the exclusion of gay people.

It's just prejudice and bigotry at its very core.

Helleofabore · 08/08/2021 13:38

You assuming that to be the case does not make it true by default.

UK prison statistics are a great place to start. Of course, those males who identify as women needed to be separated out. So you need to make sure you find a set that does this.

The proportion of males who identify as women in prison for sex crimes is significantly higher than those of females in prison for sex crimes.

Perhaps you’d like to tell us where we are wrong? I have yet to see an activist has yet been able to show the numbers are incorrect. But happy to see revised numbers.

ArabellaScott · 08/08/2021 13:38

Women discussing, reading about and defending their rights is not bigotry.

R0wantrees · 08/08/2021 13:38

Actually I just don't think adults should be naked with teenagers at all, regardless of sex.

BBC
"Papua's sacred forest for women only
01 JULY 2021|NATURE
In Papua, Indonesia, there is a mangrove forest that only women are allowed to enter. It’s a special place where generations of women have gathered clams and shared stories.

If men are found inside the forest, they are fined.

BBC Indonesia’s all-female crew was granted permission to enter."

Wherever there are spaces where women and girls are free to be naked/semi dressed away from male gaze such as this, Korean spas, Mitchfest etc some men will either seek to invade, spy or shut down.

Deleted/censorship on mumsnet now!
Deleted/censorship on mumsnet now!
Deleted/censorship on mumsnet now!
Oblomov21 · 08/08/2021 13:43

I'm confused why this thread hasn't been deleted. If it's a TAAT. Is it because MNHQ now think they made a mistake deleting the original thread?

RedDogsBeg · 08/08/2021 13:45

@BluebirdsSong

"Do you think gay men should get to watch teenage boys undress?"

That's what I see when you make those arguments about trans women. Every argument you make in favor of sex-segregated spaces could just as easily be an argument for the exclusion of gay people.

It's just prejudice and bigotry at its very core.

and what you've posted here is a sly hint that gay males are inherently paedophilic and predatory. Your homophobia knows no bounds.
CardinalLolzy · 08/08/2021 13:45

@BluebirdsSong

"Do you think gay men should get to watch teenage boys undress?"

That's what I see when you make those arguments about trans women. Every argument you make in favor of sex-segregated spaces could just as easily be an argument for the exclusion of gay people.

It's just prejudice and bigotry at its very core.

So in order to have an argument against it, you need to change what was said. Got it.
Tibtom · 08/08/2021 13:46

So my 13 year old daughter is not allowed to object to getting changed in front of 16 year old boys?

Jorrris · 08/08/2021 13:48

and what you've posted here is a sly hint that gay males are inherently paedophilic and predatory. Your homophobia knows no bounds

I agree that it comes across like that. Absolutely appalling homophobia.

GCAcademic · 08/08/2021 13:48

@BluebirdsSong

"Do you think gay men should get to watch teenage boys undress?"

That's what I see when you make those arguments about trans women. Every argument you make in favor of sex-segregated spaces could just as easily be an argument for the exclusion of gay people.

It's just prejudice and bigotry at its very core.

You see what you want to see, that is clear enough from your posts.
Ninkanink · 08/08/2021 13:52

@Oblomov21 I’m guessing it’s because it’s not really a TAAT. The OP mentioned a previous thread that’s true but the OP is/was about censorship and obviously now the discussion has moved on.

NecessaryScene · 08/08/2021 13:52

That's what I see when you make those arguments about trans women. Every argument you make in favor of sex-segregated spaces could just as easily be an argument for the exclusion of gay people.

You could, but the argument would be wrong. Whether an argument is true or false depends on the premise.

The argument here is "if an identifiable group is much more prone to violence, then, on balance, it is beneficial to segregate them from the rest of the population, in some circumstances, despite it being a form of discrimination".

To apply the argument you need to identify groups satisfying the premise.

Males are such a group - over ten times more prone to sexual violence than female people, and towards females most often. Gay people are not such a group. Nor is there any other group I'm aware of. This difference only arises in male-vs-female.

So it makes sense to exclude all males from female spaces.

Even if you could demonstrate a subset of males were lower risk - and the stats make clear that trans males are not - adding exceptions makes the general exclusion unworkable, unless the exception is clearly identifiable

There is one semi-common exception, to aid mothers, and that's boys under a specific pre-puberty age - not too unworkable because puberty is easily observable.

Tibtom · 08/08/2021 13:52

The proportion of males who identify as women in prison for sex crimes is significantly higher than those of females in prison for sex crimes.

The proportion of mens in prison for sex offence who identify as women is significantly higher than the proportion of men in prison for sex offences who don't identify as women.

CardinalLolzy · 08/08/2021 13:53

Not forgetting that the words "gay", "men" and "boys" no doubt mean to you whatever you feel they should mean (unless you do actually agree that gay means homosexual and men and boys are male sexed?) essentially making your argument meaningless.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 08/08/2021 13:55

Homophobic and racist - really covering yourself in glory Bluebird

Men really really hate being told no don’t they #nothankyou

ArabellaScott · 08/08/2021 13:56

Referenced data on prison stats here:

fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-prisoners/

or from the BBC, if you prefer:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 08/08/2021 13:56

As things go, Bluebird, you remind me of the flailing activist on twitter who said under-18s shouldn't be using changing rooms at all without a same-sex parent present.

For those slow of thought because they have never been a 15 year old girl, that would have meant I had to take my mother with me every time I went swimming during the summer holidays. How many parents of teenage girls can take the afternoon off work four weekdays a week to chaperone a 15 year old in the women's changing area. On days when I met up with friends, I suppose we'd have all had to bring a parent with us. So four bored mums in the changing room, desperstely worrying how they were going to make up their hours at work?

Or maybe we just wouldn't have gone swimming at all?

Anyway, that's what you sound like to me, Bluebird. I have been happily using communal female-only changing rooms in public leisure centres since I was 15, and I did not feel intimidated by women of any age there. It was always a calm, respectful environment. I don't think I'd have liked a teenage only single-sex area though, and I absolutely know that at that age, my male friends (who were the calm, sensitive sort) would have hated a single-sex area for males under-18s. It would have got rowdy far too fast. You need the adults around to set the social norms.

Oblomov21 · 08/08/2021 13:56

Fair enough Nink.

Tibtom · 08/08/2021 13:56

@Tibtom

The proportion of males who identify as women in prison for sex crimes is significantly higher than those of females in prison for sex crimes.

The proportion of mens in prison for sex offence who identify as women is significantly higher than the proportion of men in prison for sex offences who don't identify as women.

Sorry got that slightly wrong. Should say the proportion of men who identify as women who are in prison for sex offences is higher, at nearly 50%, than in those who do not identify as women.