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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

Deleted/censorship on mumsnet now!

777 replies

HermioneKipper · 06/08/2021 10:34

My thread asking about transwomen/transitioning/penises has been deleted.

Why are we not allowed to discuss this? It’s a genuine question and extremely relevant to the debate about transwomen entering female spaces.

There was no abuse of trans people that I could see aside from a few people attempting to derail by saying that they couldn’t see why women might be concerned about having to share their space!

This isn’t right

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
ifIwerenotanandroid · 06/08/2021 15:18

@Helleofabore

Do you understand irony?

I certainly understand hypocrisy.

Made me LOL.

I'm old enough to remember the Backlash, when 'irony' was used by men to excuse their misogyny, along with 'laddish'. That was a tedious & irritating time. But I digress.

Cailin66 · 06/08/2021 15:19

@NecessaryScene

Someone managed to archive the first 9 pages of that thread on archive.org - enter the URL there to read it, if you missed it.
how does one do that? I know what an url is, but which one? And then go onto a website called achive.org and put it in there, is that it?
WolfFleeceSpotter · 06/08/2021 15:21

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

Re needing Pants Police to check for penises.

I don't need that. I can instantly tell the sex of a person who is walking behind me in the dark. I can tell the sex of a person at the other side of a darkly lit bar from the way they stand. I can tell the sex of a person from the way they get out of a car in a foggy parking spot, or pick up bags of shopping on the other side of a supermarket car park.

And, I can tell the sex of a poster from the way they post on here.

Women see sex because sex can be a threat to us. Most women do it totally unconsciously.

This.
Tibtom · 06/08/2021 15:27

@callmeadoctor

Is anybody able to explain to me why trans people aren't considered to have body dysmorphia? As I said on the deleted thread, I always believed that that was the case? When did it change?
Have you heard of 'transvestites'? As in "The Rocky Horror Picture Show"? They now sit firmly under the trans umbrella. Frank-n-Furter is to be welcomed in all women's spaces.
Chickenyhead · 06/08/2021 15:29

@R0wantrees

If you've got a dick you ain't a chick.

I am frustrated by a notion that defines women as 'people without penises', especially on a feminist board on a parenting website.
I rather hoped that we had left such phallocentric notions behind us. Sigmund Freud would no doubt be pleased that his theories were being reawakened.

relevant thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3300647-Our-Bodies-Ourselves-celebrating-womens-bodies-in-pictures

Women's bodies are amazing!

Lovely thread!
Whoarethewho · 06/08/2021 15:32

Mumsnet have had censorship for years on here. Try standing up for yourself as a white non religious man on here and see you are the butt of everyone's jibes but if you dare respond it's against talk guidelines. Mumsnet are a business and businesses only really want to deal with the most woke and inoffensive websites. They are but one campaign from Stonewall from having their business ruined. And this type of feminism is now in the cross hairs. Welcome to the world of the white heterosexual man mumsnetters you have been out woked.

TonyThreePies · 06/08/2021 15:42

For those who think we can't tell, we can though. I'm not being flippant. I've seen a couple of TWs recently while out and about and on first glance you wouldn't think that they were men. But there was something about both of them that made me look again - and then there was no doubting it.

JaneJeffer · 06/08/2021 15:42

a large number of posts break our talk guidelines, specifically; sweeping negative generalisations about any group
Some groups are more equal than others.

R0wantrees · 06/08/2021 15:43

Try standing up for yourself as a white non religious man on here and see you are the butt of everyone's jibes but if you dare respond it's against talk guidelines... Welcome to the world of the white heterosexual man mumsnetters you have been out woked.

Some white heterosexual men do seem to spend a great deal of their energy trying to disrupt/gain entry to women's spaces. There is nothing 'woke' about this, it's been happening for a long time.

“Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.” Margaret Atwood

TonyThreePies · 06/08/2021 15:43

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

Re needing Pants Police to check for penises.

I don't need that. I can instantly tell the sex of a person who is walking behind me in the dark. I can tell the sex of a person at the other side of a darkly lit bar from the way they stand. I can tell the sex of a person from the way they get out of a car in a foggy parking spot, or pick up bags of shopping on the other side of a supermarket car park.

And, I can tell the sex of a poster from the way they post on here.

Women see sex because sex can be a threat to us. Most women do it totally unconsciously.

Thank you Vivarium, this is exactly what I wanted to say.
Brefugee · 06/08/2021 15:48

If people are truly interested in this topic then they should consider talking to trans people directly rather than shouting into an echo chamber where the majority of people are not trans, and trans views were not represented.

if there was somewhere people could ask, i guess they would do that?

I'm not GC at all, and i did see a fair few posts on that thread that raised my eyebrows. But i don't see how it could be used to show how transphobic MN is when the transphobic posts had been deleted

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/08/2021 15:48

45,000 is probably around an order of magnitude too high. The number retaining their penis is going to be more like 95%+.

This is true. The figures by GIRES referred to those who had had any medical treatment at all. This includes facial surgery, other cosmetic surgery and breast implants or removal,

suggestionsplease1 · 06/08/2021 15:49

@YetAnotherSpartacus

The sad thing about the Spartacus threads is when I read the names of posters who I got to know and know have been banned from MN for wrongthink even though these were women who were here because they needed support, or who gave support to others over or about issues experienced by women as a social group. They were rarely if ever actually offensive - they just thought and said the wrong thing according to a demographic that is not even core to MN but who monitor and patrol us inciting others to censor our speech. .
I'd imagine people who feel strongly on the other side of this debate are quite happy to see the controversial posts stay up and screenshot them as they see fit. I don't imagine they are the ones reporting posts - it's not really in their interests if they want Mumsnet to be considered a transphobic site.
vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 06/08/2021 15:49

I heard Debbie Hayton say that she passed best in the shower to the Triggernometry boys. They just nodded and accepted the statement and I have no doubt that Debbie believes it.

I think though that men are trained to only see tits and teeth.

That is why trans women get beaten up by men with homophobic rage after they realise the woman they have been chatting up is not female. A female person can spot a trans woman's sex but a male person often doesn't - even if it their own body.

This is supposition, I have no evidence to support it. Of course there is no evidence, if we can't discuss AGP here then there will be no hope of a decent peer reviewed study being published in the academic literature.

FloralBunting · 06/08/2021 15:52

But what on earth would be the point in doing that when screeching 'transphobia' and telling people to stay away to a cohort that clearly doesn't give a fuck about evidence anyway does the trick?

JaneJeffer · 06/08/2021 15:52

Perhaps because women have to be on the alert around men constantly they have an inbuilt "mandar" and men don't.

Helleofabore · 06/08/2021 15:54

I don't imagine they are the ones reporting posts - it's not really in their interests if they want Mumsnet to be considered a transphobic site.

On the contrary. We know when the threads are being closely watched, they tell us on other social media platforms. Also, on some threads you can generally tell by the arrival of new posters and then the posts start being deleted.

They boast about getting people banned.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 06/08/2021 15:58

There is no fun or gain in screenshooting perfectly reasoned and reasonable posts. Better to claim they are offensive on some spurious grounds and have them removed.

nauticant · 06/08/2021 16:00

It's not about the evidence, it's about the narrative, for example: MN is a nest of transphobia. It is easier to freely form a narrative when the underlying evidence is no longer available.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/08/2021 16:01

Whenever this, or related discussions, happen, one fundamental point that is essential to discuss is that most trans people do not have gender dysphoria in a meaningful sense of being a condition that would be diagnosed by a medical professional. If you don't believe me, look up the statistics about the prevalence of gender dysphoria and compare them to the prevalence of being trans.

Those who would seriously consider going through gender reassignment surgery because of gender dysphoria are a small minority of trans people.

This.

nauticant · 06/08/2021 16:02

When you're enforcing a belief system, evidence can often be highly inconvenient. Facts can be unruly. Belief systems are more readily built on myths.

NecessaryScene · 06/08/2021 16:05

how does one do that? I know what an url is, but which one? And then go onto a website called achive.org and put it in there, is that it?

The URL for the deleted thread, which you should have from your history if you were reading it. The one that now shows the deletion message. Copy that URL in to the Wayback Machine there on archive.org, and it should come straight up. (You'll need to click on the date link).

I'm being coy because I doubt it's okay to link directly to a copy of a deleted thread.

This more general link should show all things archived from Mumsnet today. But it's just sitting there spinning for me at the moment. Confused

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20210806*/www.mumsnet.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20210806/www.mumsnet.com/*

Tibtom · 06/08/2021 16:07

Mumsnet you say we mustn't talk about AGP being the main motivator for trans. Is this because you have evidence to the contrary? If so can you share it?

nauticant · 06/08/2021 16:11

Well, it's not gender dysphoria since that's very rare. Another possibility would be young people struggling with identity issues.

R0wantrees · 06/08/2021 16:12

I heard Debbie Hayton say that she passed best in the shower to the Triggernometry boys. They just nodded and accepted the statement and I have no doubt that Debbie believes it.

'Passes' in which public showers? It is not for the Triggernometry boys or Dr Hayton to determine this and it seems (without context) a concerning disclosure.