Deleted/censorship on mumsnet now!

[HermioneKipper]

My thread asking about transwomen/transitioning/penises has been deleted.

Why are we not allowed to discuss this? It’s a genuine question and extremely relevant to the debate about transwomen entering female spaces.

There was no abuse of trans people that I could see aside from a few people attempting to derail by saying that they couldn’t see why women might be concerned about having to share their space!

This isn’t right

I heard Debbie Hayton say that she passed best in the shower to the Triggernometry boys. They just nodded and accepted the statement and I have no doubt that Debbie believes it.

Published on February 2, 2020
I May Have Gender Dysphoria. But I Still Prefer to Base My Life on Biology, Not Fantasy
written by Debbie Hayton

(extract)
But there is a well-observed typology. In the 1980s, American-Canadian sexologist Ray Blanchard proposed that transsexualism (as it was then commonly called) in males generally manifested as either (1) effeminate gay men seeking to further accentuate their appeal to other men (homosexual transsexualism, or HSTS); or (2) heterosexual autogynephiles—self-attracted men who prefer to conceive of themselves as women—who typically come out as trans women later in life (and often to the great surprise of family and friends). The most vocal and aggressive proponents of trans rights—biological males who often will express themselves aggressively to women who bring up the issue of biology—appear to be drawn disproportionately from this second, autogynephilic category. (continues)

I speak from experience when I say that it’s difficult for autogynephiles to admit the simple truth that they are simply heterosexual males who use the conceit of female self-identification as a means to rationalize their sexual attraction to a female version of themselves. As any sex therapist can attest, people often feel ashamed about unusual sexual proclivities. Shame is a powerful emotion, and a person who suffers from it often will be driven to control their narrative in a way that protects their sense of self-worth.

Autogynephilia drove my own transsexualism." (continues)

quillette.com/2020/02/02/i-may-have-gender-dysphoria-but-i-still-prefer-to-base-my-life-on-biology-not-fantasy/

If people are truly interested in this topic then they should consider talking to trans people directly rather than shouting into an echo chamber where the majority of people are not trans, and trans views were not represented

Well I and others have tried, but we are told over and over to "educate ourselves"
How can we educate ourselves if no one will answer a question? If every time we ask what does feeling like a woman mean we are told it's a silly question or we are told stereotype after stereotype. Long hair, tits, short skirts etc.
I've even asked someone if there aren't enough words in the English language then try a different language, I'm fluent in quite a few. But no, I still got the go educate yourself schtick.

I still hold out hope that a visitor will be able to answer one day.

There are some transwomen on mumsnet who frequently add important points to conversations. Long term posters who understand the fears and concerns of women. I find those posts make me think.

If people are truly interested in this topic then they should consider talking to trans people directly rather than shouting into an echo chamber where the majority of people are not trans, and trans views were not represented

I have no desire to speak with people who call me a TERF or a bigot or tell me they want me to die in a fire. And, yes, these things have happened to me.

It's not about the evidence, it's about the narrative, for example: MN is a nest of transphobia. It is easier to freely form a narrative when the underlying evidence is no longer available.

Yes, some posters do like to push that particular narrative. And yet... those very same posters rarely post any evidence for any of their assertions. They simply try to rely on their emotive posts which are not the posts that readers remember. The posts that readers remember are those that make them think, reconsider their views and have evidence to support them. From any point of view.

But, those other style of posters will still continue and that is great. Sometimes another poster will chip in with a post they think is a great 'gotcha' or a one line support post.

It becomes a live demonstration of the superficiality of activist style arguments and the tactics that rely on shaming to silence those accused of wrong think. If they backed up their posts with information that had a solid foundation and could be discussed, it would be wonderful.

If people are truly interested in this topic then they should consider talking to trans people directly rather than shouting into an echo chamber where the majority of people are not trans, and trans views were not represented

I've read the definition - I think you'll find that actually, a large majority of us do fall under the trans umbrella (myself included) - we just think that it's bunkem.

@Kotatsu

Very true.

If I believed, I would be non-binary, agender. Although a few of the newer genders might fit better.

If people are truly interested in this topic then they should consider talking to trans people directly

Been there. Done that. Some transwomen are willing to engage. Many are not. Many like to threaten and dox instead.
Regardless, when it comes to women's needs and rights, we don't need to consult trans people over that. Do we.

Nope.

Women are the experts in what women need.

Regardless, when it comes to women's needs and rights, we don't need to consult trans people over that. Do we.

This!

For those who like to call posters on here names. For those who like to assert that we have no knowledge, no experience... we are talking about preserving women's rights. Exactly WHAT knowledge and experience do you reckon we DON'T have?

I will wait patiently for an answer.

Women are the experts in what women need

Exactly. Seems bizarre that there's an expectation that we should need to ask. Especially as there's lots of academic information at our fingertips.
Just a cursory glance over twitter gives us a flavour of where many of the individuals are at if we really wanted to know their thoughts. Those few with something more sensible to say generally step forward and respectfully say it. The rest, threats of violence, name calling, doxing, well, I don't really care about what those individuals have to say anyway.

The bottom line is IF we had a society and a structure that took the safety and well being of women and children extremely seriously we would not be in this position in the first place, of having to argue to have a safe space whilst we are very ill or injured in hospital or unable to defend ourselves in a tiny cell. This should not even be up for discussion, at all! Much less being bartered and decided by a bunch of men who have absolutely no idea of our predicament in Westminster. It is an astonishing situation we find ourselves in.

Every woman regardless should be entitled to feel and be physically safe from harm in all settings, and the very fact we are having to scream and shout just to secure a basic human need is a terrible, terrible indictment of our times.

So many things have to change, and it really needs to start now. We have to change this from the top down. We can talk about it as much as we like on forums, but we need to start applying pressure in huge numbers now or I am afraid it will continue to be swept under the carpet as if our safety is meaningless.

Anyway, the way I see it is like this:

I spent years wasting time trying to reason with trans people (generally males identifying as women) mainly on twitter. And here. Trying to be kind. And for my efforts I was generally repaid with rudeness and threats. For speaking up for women's rights.

Then one day I though, hmm, I've had enough of this. I don't need to try and appeal to the better nature of many of these people. (NATWALT). After all, really, women's rights and safeguards have nothing to do with males identifying as females. Nothing. At. All.

So now I actively challenge to make sure women's legal rights are upheld and don't include people that are not women. Every single time. I don't need to take on board the opinions of males who identify as females. Not when it comes to sex based rights. No chance. Why would I.

So when people say that we should consider talking to trans people directly, my answer is this: I've considered it. And the answer is no.

That's pretty much it. Things are much more focussed and clearer now.
☺️

@Jorrris

Anyway, the way I see it is like this:

I spent years wasting time trying to reason with trans people (generally males identifying as women) mainly on twitter. And here. Trying to be kind. And for my efforts I was generally repaid with rudeness and threats. For speaking up for women's rights.

Then one day I though, hmm, I've had enough of this. I don't need to try and appeal to the better nature of many of these people. (NATWALT). After all, really, women's rights and safeguards have nothing to do with males identifying as females. Nothing. At. All.

So now I actively challenge to make sure women's legal rights are upheld and don't include people that are not women. Every single time. I don't need to take on board the opinions of males who identify as females. Not when it comes to sex based rights. No chance. Why would I.

So when people say that we should consider talking to trans people directly, my answer is this: I've considered it. And the answer is no.

That's pretty much it. Things are much more focussed and clearer now.
☺️

This.

@stepupandbecounted

The bottom line is IF we had a society and a structure that took the safety and well being of women and children extremely seriously we would not be in this position in the first place, of having to argue to have a safe space whilst we are very ill or injured in hospital or unable to defend ourselves in a tiny cell. This should not even be up for discussion, at all! Much less being bartered and decided by a bunch of men who have absolutely no idea of our predicament in Westminster. It is an astonishing situation we find ourselves in.

Every woman regardless should be entitled to feel and be physically safe from harm in all settings, and the very fact we are having to scream and shout just to secure a basic human need is a terrible, terrible indictment of our times.

So many things have to change, and it really needs to start now. We have to change this from the top down. We can talk about it as much as we like on forums, but we need to start applying pressure in huge numbers now or I am afraid it will continue to be swept under the carpet as if our safety is meaningless.

Yes, so much this. Everything that has happened in the last few years has been a giant slap in the face to women.

And YY especially the last paragraph.

This is not going to go away on its own. There are too many entitled men invested in bringing us down. And by the time the general public wakes up the reality of this, it will be too late as far as legislation goes. Self ID is already law in Ireland, where I live. And nobody is even talking about it. So fucking depressing.

They have targeted our laws and our spaces. They mean business. They are not just going to go away quietly, now they have tasted a bit of the glory.

That's why joining organisations like Sex Matters is so important, as they can lobby for pushback. There are so many of us out there, but we need to band together to shout louder.
Talk to MPs and elected representatives, talk to people we know. Keep talking about this. Keep donating to crowdfunders, keep sending emails, I think doing something is what is stopping me from going mad.

I don't care anymore if some people don't like me, or think I'm being mean, or think I'm overreacting. This is too important to ignore.

So now I actively challenge to make sure women's legal rights are upheld and don't include people that are not women. Every single time. I don't need to take on board the opinions of males who identify as females. Not when it comes to sex based rights. No chance. Why would I.

And that is as it should be.

Trans activists do not take on board the opinions of women, and I wouldn't expect them to either.

Campaigns centred around groups should campaign specifically for their groups.

It's clear though that women's rights are handled differently in the current climate - it is deemed somehow improper for women to clearly stand up for themselves, rather than worrying about everyone else.

(On this subject, one of my favourite Magdalen Berns videos - I still find it hard to believe this thing isn't a parody).

What I would expect is those in positions of responsibility, such as politicians, to listen to campaigners on all sides, and balance competing demands.

The lovely Magdalen ♥️ Nails it as ever.

@Jorrris

Anyway, the way I see it is like this:

I spent years wasting time trying to reason with trans people (generally males identifying as women) mainly on twitter. And here. Trying to be kind. And for my efforts I was generally repaid with rudeness and threats. For speaking up for women's rights.

Then one day I though, hmm, I've had enough of this. I don't need to try and appeal to the better nature of many of these people. (NATWALT). After all, really, women's rights and safeguards have nothing to do with males identifying as females. Nothing. At. All.

So now I actively challenge to make sure women's legal rights are upheld and don't include people that are not women. Every single time. I don't need to take on board the opinions of males who identify as females. Not when it comes to sex based rights. No chance. Why would I.

So when people say that we should consider talking to trans people directly, my answer is this: I've considered it. And the answer is no.

That's pretty much it. Things are much more focussed and clearer now.
☺️

Yes.

As for the consider talking to trans people directly - been there, done that got the T-Shirt.

Will I consider or do it again? No thankyou.

#NoThankYou

@Jorrris

The lovely Magdalen ♥️ Nails it as ever.

Wow

I love her!

Where can I watch the rest?

I don't care anymore if some people don't like me, or think I'm being mean, or think I'm overreacting. This is too important to ignore.

Agree. TRAs and their supporters can call me all the names they like, can accuse me of whatever - right-wing, transphobic, in the pay of the Christian Right - their accusations are baseless and I couldn't, and never did, give a flying fuck.

Oh well, I saw it and it peaked at least one person.

Where can I watch the rest?

Magdalen Berns. There's plenty of her work on YouTube. She has sadly died (in case you didn't know), but never forgotten.

@Jorrris

Where can I watch the rest?

Magdalen Berns. There's plenty of her work on YouTube. She has sadly died (in case you didn't know), but never forgotten.

I have my evening sorted then.

I had heard of some of the disgusting responses when she died, but I had never seen her until today. What a loss.

She truly was a loss.