Douglas Murray asks: Does Owen Jones have a woman problem?

[RoyalCorgi]

I think we know the answer:

unherd.com/2021/08/does-owen-jones-have-a-woman-problem/

I would have liked him to have gone in harder on this subject, but I'm glad his misogyny has been publicly noted.

Look what this mess has made Douglas Murray write:

Does male privilege really exist? I did not used to think so. But in recent years, I’ve come to realise that not only might it exist, but that, at least in one respect, I may also benefit from it.

His Madness of Crowds might have been rubbish on women but it's interesting to see how his awareness is growing.

It's a great article 'Youtuber Owen Jones' made me laugh out loud.

He is spot on about OJ reserving his resentment for female members of the species in his attacks.

Yes, nauticant, it seems odd that he didn't notice the existence of male privilege. I suppose if you go through life benefiting from something you don't even notice it's there. You never know, we might make a feminist of old Douglas yet.

I like that Murray examines his own views when presented with new evidence and is able to accept that maybe he was wrong.

The answer to the question posed in the article is 'Of course he does!'

Youtuber
Glad to see the awareness male priviledge growing in a man. Slow progress but welcome nonetheless

crikey. when Douglas Murray is noticing misogyny it must be pretty fucking blatant. Pat on the back for sanctimonious Morph.

disclaimer - I have a lot of time for DM and have read his books, he's just shit on the real lives of women

Does male privilege really exist? I did not used to think so. But in recent years, I’ve come to realise that not only might it exist, but that, at least in one respect, I may also benefit from it. That is, I have the privilege of being able to write about certain contentious issues without being singled out and demonised for doing so.

Douglas Murray eventually "gets it". It isn't just male privilege which allows men to write, with far less harassment, about the issue it's the reason why this insanity has progressed so far. Is it possible DM might be on the cusp of fully understanding what women's liberation really means?

OJ is probably one of the most misogynistic men to have a public platform but it seems to have taken a rather long time for some other men to notice this, that's male privilege.

@Mollyollydolly

It's a great article 'Youtuber Owen Jones' made me laugh out loud.

Me too

Does male privilege really exist? I did not used to think so. But in recent years, I’ve come to realise that not only might it exist, but that, at least in one respect, I may also benefit from it.

My thinking too. I think "male privilege" is one of those potentially unhelpful privilege concepts that I think are effectively "neo-Xist" in an attempt to be "anti-Xist".

These sometimes seem to exist in a sort of metaphysical form as a sort of "original sin". Or "sins of the ancestors". I'm reflexively skeptical about treating individuals as representatives of their identity group.

But in this particular issue, the evidence for it existing here and now is undeniable. Whatever you want to call it, the differing standards in what happens to men and women is stark.

Men can be hit hard in this fight - eg Graham Linehan - but they have to work EXTREMELY hard at it. And has he ever had a threat of violence or rape? "Donkey Kong says trans right" GIFs aren't really the same thing as JKR gets... (For a few mild tweets and 1 essay!).

As Jane Clare Jones once said - this is the biggest patriarchal unmasking you could imagine. To not see this, even as a man, you must be quite misogynist yourself...

[quote RoyalCorgi]I think we know the answer:

unherd.com/2021/08/does-owen-jones-have-a-woman-problem/[/quote]
Douglas Murray has always denied that men have any privilege over women and The Madness of Crowds was certainly no friend to feminists. So for him to begin to wonder is quite something!

I did not used to think so.

I am slightly bugged by the "used" - it should be "use". Common mistake...

I think the biggest manifestation of male privilege is men's manifest sense of entitlement about their own behaviour and the fear women have of challenging them. Men (some men) think it's their right to piss on the street, or to put their feet up on the train seat, or to shove past women on the pavement, or to shout abuse at a teenage girl from a car window. Women will almost never challenge that behaviour because they're too frightened. Male control women through the constant threat of violence. Douglas will simply have gone through life not noticing this until he sees it on Twitter, where it's hard not to notice it.

It's interesting that it's gender ideology and owen jones that has opened DMs eyes to male privilege and the misogyny that runs deep within trans rights activists.

DM is right, anyone who has been following this for even just a short time will have noticed the different treatment of men and women who speak out. The pile ons that OJ orchestrates are particularly awful.

Damn - used "manifest" twice. I used those examples because they are everyday ones that are visible to people who are paying attention. But then there is rape (with the low prosecution rates), domestic violence, prostitution, psychological control and abuse in a relationship - lots of stuff that has presumably also passed Murray by.

I remember watching Owen Jones interview Piers Morgan on his YouTube news channel. I was just struck by the whole jokey banter on display. OJ good humouredly pressing Piers on his beliefs about transgender people and vice versa. There was none of the indignant, outraged vitriol that OJ (and others) preserve especially for women who have these views. It was like two blokes ‘agreeing to disagree’ over a pint. That just summed up the whole misogynistic stitch up that’s playing out. OJ wouldn’t speak with JKR or Susan Moore or Helen Joyce like that - he wouldn’t even have the guts to invite them on to his channel.

Men are just allowed to get away with this stuff. It’s as if they hold more value as human beings and no one wants to bring them down if they transgress. Give them the benefit of the doubt or just gloss over it.

I am slightly bugged by the "used" - it should be "use". Common mistake.
Sorry - short pedantic interruption: "I used not to think so", struck me as a much tidier sentence construction when I read the article.
But - back to the main subject!

@RoyalCorgi

Yes, nauticant, it seems odd that he didn't notice the existence of male privilege. I suppose if you go through life benefiting from something you don't even notice it's there. You never know, we might make a feminist of old Douglas yet.

I think male privilege is essentially about all the seemingly small things men simply don't need to notice or take account of in their everyday lives (safety etc just for starters).

It's the not needing to notice and therefore women's arguments can be neatly reduced to 'looking for sexism', 'getting hysterical about nothing' etc.

@Mollyollydolly

It's a great article 'Youtuber Owen Jones' made me laugh out loud.

Me too!

I think it's interesting when men suddenly see it. And interesting who sees it and who doesn't.
Andrew Doyle's another who I wouldn't have had down as a feminist ally, and yet who's started seeing it.
James Kirkup of course saw it a few years ago.

Interesting experiment if nothing else.

Owen Jones sent his followers after Sarah Ditum for her column on Terry Pratchett/twitter, even though (I think) it presented a relatively fair analysis of both sides of the argument and concluded that it is impossible to know conclusively what somebody would have thought if they are dead. (Seems very fair to me - I don't even know what I definitely think about a whole range of subjects!).

How will Murray fare?

@nauticant

Look what this mess has made Douglas Murray write:

Does male privilege really exist? I did not used to think so. But in recent years, I’ve come to realise that not only might it exist, but that, at least in one respect, I may also benefit from it.

His Madness of Crowds might have been rubbish on women but it's interesting to see how his awareness is growing.

Wow.

@mollythemeerkat

I am slightly bugged by the "used" - it should be "use". Common mistake. Sorry - short pedantic interruption: "I used not to think so", struck me as a much tidier sentence construction when I read the article. But - back to the main subject!

'Never used to think so' would have have perhaps read easier but I like the old-style elegance of 'used not to think so'.

I think male privilege is essentially about all the seemingly small things men simply don't need to notice or take account of in their everyday lives (safety etc just for starters).

It's the not needing to notice and therefore women's arguments can be neatly reduced to 'looking for sexism', 'getting hysterical about nothing' etc.

Yes, some of this privilege is the absence of things - absence of the constant awareness of certain health related issues, absence of the awareness of the male gaze, absence of a generalised learned fear/anxiety when out in public, absence of knowledge of dangers of rape are a few examples I suppose. Hard to understand a million tiny examples of sexism and misogyny when the world is built out of them.

Like trying to see water when you're swimming in it.

I sort of agree with DM to an extent about male privilege. There are definitely many aspects of life where males are privileged over females. But I don't believe there is a blanket male privilege that confers advantage onto males in every situation. I think a lot of times, men get defensive about the idea of male privilege because it is used in that blanket way, and they can easily see that males are not always subject to an advantage in life (e.g. in education, or certain industries like publishing, the creative arts etc). When it is broken down into specific situations, it's much easier to recognise and discuss. I suppose all I'm saying is that 'male privilege' is a term that is wide open to many competing interpretations, and this makes it inefficient at expressing the concepts we want to express. Anyway, I'm glad DM sees the misogyny inherent in OJ's approach and the very real situation where males' speech is more free than ours. And I'm very pleased to imagine LOJ reading this and seeing himself called out for his woman-hating - and described as a YouTuber