Douglas Murray asks: Does Owen Jones have a woman problem?

[RoyalCorgi]

I think we know the answer:

unherd.com/2021/08/does-owen-jones-have-a-woman-problem/

@WarriorN

Ok caught up on the terry pratchett thing.

Does / has Jones go/ne after Sodha?

She another woman absolutely thrashing it right now.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/terf-war-embroils-guardian-hq

Yes.

don’t understand the snide ‘friend of women’ comment about Murray. I’ve always found him incredibly fair and supportive of second wave feminism. I remember his anger at the left ignoring female grooming gang victims.

Yes but Murray has always been a bit quick to dismiss feminism whilst being clueless about what is currently going on in feminism IMO. Do you remember the Munich attacks? He went on TV stating that feminists were doing nothing to help women because they were too scared to criticise Islam.

I was yelling at the screen “But Douglas! What about Mumsnet?!” cos MN was literally chockablock with outrage threads at the time, they even raised a petition that got ignored.

So it’s nice to see he’s catching up because he’s very eloquent.

I don't know if he's gone for Sodha personally but I remember him having a pop at a leader article in The Observer that was generally agreed to be have been written by her.

"I did not used to think so," ?!
I hope that's just a poor editorial intervention.

"I used not to think so," or "I did not use to think so," surely.

But no detraction from a crystal clear, calm, reasoned article. OJ is spitting chips.

I don’t think it’s difficult to do a cut and paste ad hominem attack on any columnist who has been writing for a decade or more. Very easy if you are preaching to the converted and the columnist is on the other side. It’s just lazy click bait.

Honestly, there is an element of this in DM’s piece, but the core truth is that OJ refuses to talk to women about the issues, and SD’s article did not merit the attack it received.

The video (linked from the article) is great. Go to 3:58 to see DM neatly identify the clash between trans-activism and feminism.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=eYOfZ2yV8I0

Thanks merry, I'd forgotten I'd read that. I think my brain cba to digest anything OJ. Also, I seem to remember SS really held her own and couldn't care too shiny shits about him.

Someone on twitter last week , I think Janice Turner, repeatedly asked oj why he wouldn't respond to any questions about the effect on women's rights. He kept repeating that he now doesn't engage in debates on trans rights as "he's not trans and it's not his place."

I mean, Jeeze, the male privileged arrogance. It's absolutely fine for him to comment on women!

[quote Lessthanaballpark]The video (linked from the article) is great. Go to 3:58 to see DM neatly identify the clash between trans-activism and feminism.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=eYOfZ2yV8I0[/quote]

Bloody hell I had no idea Lionel is as knowledgeable about all this as she is. He's absolutely bang on and then she's even more so when she describes the consequences what he outlines around the car crash of intersectionality.

An excellent discussion.

He kept repeating that he now doesn't engage in debates on trans rights as "he's not trans and it's not his place."
That was what struck me too. He will say that, and yet doesn't get that women have a perspective and experiences that he'll never have.

It’s great isn’t it Warrior? Although I part ways with Murray when he starts asserting that Trans activism is a Marxist conspiracy. However Lionel Shriver answers perfectly by saying that most people supporting trans activism are well intentioned but misguided.

@RoyalCorgi

Owen Jones is so scared of being on the 'wrong side' of anything, that an accusation of misogyny will really hit him where it hurts!

Women are always accusing OJ of misogyny, but it's like water off a duck's back. I don't think he sees misogyny as a bad thing, in the same way that some anti-racists don't see anti-Semitism as a bad thing. From OJ's pov, I think women are simply an irrelevance.

Agreed, until lil OJ needs a surrogate, then apparently its matters if it's a woman or a "woman"

Sonia is brilliant @WarriorN . Another writer I think is GC is Kenan Malik. His critical skills were honed in the Revolutionary Communist Party so he can't really be attacked as a right wing Evangelical nutbag.

He kept repeating that he now doesn't engage in debates on trans rights as "he's not trans and it's not his place." The obvious reason for his stepping back is his own self interest. He knows that the debate, by getting more sunlight, is highlighting how many flaws the TWAW argument has and the minefield that will end up with his own cancellation. He is hoping that by his withdrawal, that he will save his skin. His interview with Piers Morgan showed what an absolute coward he is and also that bully's will always back down when confronted by a strong opponent (do not like PM but he would make mincemeat out of OJ if he had to - wonder if OJ is vegan )

He has classic bully / coward tendencies.

He is hoping that by his withdrawal, that he will save his skin.
I honestly don't believe there's anything strategic about it. I think he genuinely believes he's on the side of the righteous.

Yes but Murray has always been a bit quick to dismiss feminism whilst being clueless about what is currently going on in feminism IMO. Do you remember the Munich attacks? He went on TV stating that feminists were doing nothing to help women because they were too scared to criticise Islam.

I was yelling at the screen “But Douglas! What about Mumsnet?!” cos MN was literally chockablock with outrage threads at the time, they even raised a petition that got ignored.

I do this all the time, whenever I hear feminists being criticised for x, y or z - in my head I am shouting look on Mumsnet, we are discussing and taking action and stop following libfems on Twitter and deciding that’s what all feminists think!

Maybe the problem with OJ is that he is fundamentally very traditional and right wing but identifies as left wing.

His dismissal of women who question his authority, his apparent belief that equality is a charitable gift only to be bestowed on deserving minorities, his investment in identity and status - all very patriarchal.

OJ has retweeted over 20 Tweets which praise his article.

Is it just me or is this behaviour rather strange from a grown man?

I part ways with Murray when he starts asserting that Trans activism is a Marxist conspiracy.

Not true - agree with it or not, Marxism is fundamentally materialist. You can’t have class analysis if you can’t define classes.

Sorry - if not clear, Murray is wrong, not lessthanaballpark!

@LizzieSiddal

OJ has retweeted over 20 Tweets which praise his article.

Is it just me or is this behaviour rather strange from a grown man?

Yes I don't see any of the women he criticises doing that.

I do think trying to debate him is going at it the wrong way because it's not a reasoned, rational viewpoint - it's an emotional one. So he'll get flustered and angry when challenged but I don't think it'll ever change his opinion, because that's not the part of his brain that the opinion comes from.

" Is it just me or is this behaviour rather strange from a grown man?"

He will retweet popular accounts hoping to gain more followers

All part of twitter wars

It's a silly game

I've always wanted to meet Owen Jones, so I can show him all the 'cis-gender privilege' I have.

@merrymouse

Maybe the problem with OJ is that he is fundamentally very traditional and right wing but identifies as left wing.

His dismissal of women who question his authority, his apparent belief that equality is a charitable gift only to be bestowed on deserving minorities, his investment in identity and status - all very patriarchal.

This is an EXCELLENT point.👏👏