Douglas Murray asks: Does Owen Jones have a woman problem?

[RoyalCorgi]

I think we know the answer:

unherd.com/2021/08/does-owen-jones-have-a-woman-problem/

He is so dishonest, and refuses to face up to the critical issues of this debate - eg prisons, refuges, sports, hospital wards, changing areas etc. He just won't do it. He puts his fingers in his ears and says 'lalalalala, women agree with me, Im going to cherry pick polls to keep pushing a narrative, lalalalala, there's no clash of rights, lalalalala, anyone who deviates from the line is a hard right bigot'.

And he is a steaming hypocrite as well.

He gave Nimco Ali a load of shit about Boris's 'bum boy' thing - like a dog with a bone because he wanted to expose her for being in any way connected to BJ and therefore guilty by association and unable to ever have an opinion on anything else ever again.

And yet, he is constantly plugging Shon Faye (including in his latest piece) who is on record as making highly misogynistic comments on Twitter, telling women to 'enjoy ur erasure' and telling young transwomen that the way to be a woman is 'suck dick, get tits early'.

So surely, by Owen's rules, anything he ever says again is discredited because he has supported someone who has openly made misogynistic comments, and is therefore a misogynist himself? I would love to see Nimco Ali give him a 'is that misogynist Owen? Do you admit that is a misogynistic tweet, yes or no? Do you? DO YOU?' interrogation.

What's sauce for the goose Owen.....

Well I think that's OJ's golden bridge pretty comprehensively burnt.

Sorry, the 'golden bridge' may be referencing a different thread.

cor, that was long.

also parts of it were bollocks

He [Murray] declares himself “Deeply uncomfortable about the idea of a young effeminate boy being told he is actually a girl or a young tomboyish girl being told that she is a boy” — a ludicrously false claim

er what now? has Owen never seen the Genderbread person? or the mermaids 'GI Joe to Barbie' scale?

as for listing as one of Suzanne Moore's crimes

when Lib Dem politician Layla Moran came out as pansexual, Suzanne ridiculed her over it

frankly if the word 'pansexual' doesn't make you fear for your Le Crueset then you have no sense of humour. I suspect this is the case for poor Owen.

@aliasundercover

He’s very angry

… and dishonest.

And having a bit of a tantrum.

and this

Shon Faye, whose upcoming book The Transgender Issue is a must read

genuinely made me laugh out loud

er what now? has Owen never seen the Genderbread person? or the mermaids 'GI Joe to Barbie' scale?

If he can’t engage with the subject, how does he think he is going to make any argument, least of all a once and for all rebuttal?

If supporters of trans rights are forced into a defensive position of denying misogyny, the reality of trans people is erased

A fallacy. The whole thing is a bit of a stream of consciousness but this in particular stood out as nonsensical.

I guess conversely "if supporters of womens' rights are forced into a defensive position of denying transphobia, the reality of women is erased".

Nope, doesn't make sense that way around either. It's certainly fucking aggravating, but I don't detect any "erasure".

I don’t understand the snide ‘friend of women’ comment about Murray. I’ve always found him incredibly fair and supportive of second wave feminism. I remember his anger at the left ignoring female grooming gang victims. His chapter in TMOC about women was thoroughly researched and insightful. I’m not handing in my feminist card for thinking that.

And he’s got OJ bang to rights on this one.

That is an incredibly badly written article by OJ. It was really hard to read.

Hmm that Medium article. I did a bit of counting:

I counted 4 paragraphs (one of them bulleted so quite long) specifically about Douglas Murray. Fair enough - it was provocative of Murray and I'm sure he expected it.
Then there's one paragraph listing men he's locked horns with, from Andrew Neil to Keir Starmer.
One about Graham Lineham and James Kirkup.

Five paragraphs about various women, including one each for Julie Bindel, Nimco Ali and Sarah Ditum (Cleanergate clearly hurt).

Nine paragraphs about Suzanne more.

9 - in an article denying he has a woman problem.

Feel free to check my arithmatic.

So today he ignored DM on Twitter but took a swipe at Janice Turner then an article which just calls DM nasty names and has a massive pop at Suzanne Moore. Right.
We see you OJ.

If he was operating in good faith he could have gone in Triggernometry with Andrew Doyle, or he could have read Helen Joyce’s book and critiqued it but he didn’t. I think DM has the measure of this intellectual lightweight and now all the world can see it too.

Keep talking Owen. You show your bare arse with every word.

All mouth and no trousers, that one.

All mouth and no trousers, that one.

Worse, all mouth and no journalism. He is demonstrating the investigative and analytical skills of Nigel Farage.

This tweet sums OJ up perfectly… twitter.com/OscarWi41720793/status/1423524498670817283?s=20

Wow. LOJ has really excelled himself in his mysogenistic rants, hasn't he.

@Floisme

Sorry, the 'golden bridge' may be referencing a different thread.

Yes, it is.

And, whatever the demerits of individuals, and there will always be some who are bad faith participants, there needs to be a golden bridge for those who start to change their minds.

Otherwise, how does this achieve a liveable solution in which we can all tolerate eachother without damaging impacts on women's rights? How do we stop the progress towards authoritarianism?

@Jackgrealishscurtains

He is so dishonest, and refuses to face up to the critical issues of this debate - eg prisons, refuges, sports, hospital wards, changing areas etc. He just won't do it. He puts his fingers in his ears and says 'lalalalala, women agree with me, Im going to cherry pick polls to keep pushing a narrative, lalalalala, there's no clash of rights, lalalalala, anyone who deviates from the line is a hard right bigot'.

And he is a steaming hypocrite as well.

He gave Nimco Ali a load of shit about Boris's 'bum boy' thing - like a dog with a bone because he wanted to expose her for being in any way connected to BJ and therefore guilty by association and unable to ever have an opinion on anything else ever again.

And yet, he is constantly plugging Shon Faye (including in his latest piece) who is on record as making highly misogynistic comments on Twitter, telling women to 'enjoy ur erasure' and telling young transwomen that the way to be a woman is 'suck dick, get tits early'.

So surely, by Owen's rules, anything he ever says again is discredited because he has supported someone who has openly made misogynistic comments, and is therefore a misogynist himself? I would love to see Nimco Ali give him a 'is that misogynist Owen? Do you admit that is a misogynistic tweet, yes or no? Do you? DO YOU?' interrogation.

What's sauce for the goose Owen.....

I do think what Boris said was homophobic but if you think of at the time it was said one of the terms OJ uses in his article would be considered to be homophobic. In 1998 it was definitely a slur to call someone queer. If we're judging past language by current morals should we judge current language by past morals too?

OJ is perfectly happy to talk about trans issues with men but never men who are particularly au fait with the issues. A few weeks ago, I was listening to his appearance on Geoff Norcott's podcast and hes perfectly happy to talk about it with Geoff who has misgvings about self ID, sports etc but was not able to gve a good rebuttal to the points OJ had clearly rehearsed and runs through a mile a minute. If he actually is #nodebate then he needs to be that way with everyone not just certain men.

If he only wants to talk to trans people about these issues, why not Debbie Hayton or Rose of Dawn or a detranstioner like Keira Bell?

I am fuming that Owen, who had no problem labelling antisemitism in Corbyn's Labour as mere 'smears' and was recently to be seen sucking up to that vile racist and misogynist George Galloway, has the absolute chutzpah to attack anyone else for racism or for associating with undesirables.

Let's not forget that Owen, as a teenage student at Oxford, spent his time editing Wikipedia on the definition of Judaism. Because as a white non-Jews with zero expertise in the matter, he was clearly entitled to define my ethnicity. And yet he objects to women talking about...women's rights!

twitter.com/NudderingNudnik/status/987091414508032001?s=19

I cannot describe quite how strongly I dislike his cheap, clickbaity grift.

I honestly hold him responsible for a large share of the issues in Labour over the last 6 years, acting as a purely divisive force to split the party and encourage the worst elements on the far left.

He has encouraged racists like Galloway,turned a blind eye to homophobia where it suits him, despite being gay, and led repeated pile ons against multiple women, nearly all women on the left, which is inexcusable from one who claims to be on the left himself.

His writing is execrable too, but of the sort that appeals to the very stupid.

I've missed what he's done to Ditum. What's happened?

Bang on article. Jones never goes after men. Cowardly bully.

@RoyalCorgi

Yes, nauticant, it seems odd that he didn't notice the existence of male privilege. I suppose if you go through life benefiting from something you don't even notice it's there. You never know, we might make a feminist of old Douglas yet.

Dh didn't know anything about male privilege. I do think my own generation, gen x, last lot to do university fee free, believed, as I did, that equality of the sexes was won in the west.

I only twigged through kids and mn. Though the way many of my friends suffered domestic violence or coercion through my 20s and 30s was a niggling clue something wasn't right.

*I think male privilege is essentially about all the seemingly small things men simply don't need to notice or take account of in their everyday lives (safety etc just for starters).

It's the not needing to notice and therefore women's arguments can be neatly reduced to 'looking for sexism', 'getting hysterical about nothing' etc.*

Sorry, reading thread, absolutely this.

Dh recently looked absolutely confounded at the concept of motherly guilt. Guilt about feeling split re work and young kids etc. And how media and other parents exacerbate it.

Because one male privilege is that it's absolutely the norm for the father to work full time and not feel bad about it.

One of my friends is a Gp with other clinical roles and 3 children under 8. She's forever going through cycles of guilt and cutting her hours and then taking on other roles which are v well paid while her husband seems absolutely fine working full time.

Ok caught up on the terry pratchett thing.

Does / has Jones go/ne after Sodha?

She another woman absolutely thrashing it right now.