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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Douglas Murray asks: Does Owen Jones have a woman problem?

184 replies

RoyalCorgi · 06/08/2021 09:43

I think we know the answer:

unherd.com/2021/08/does-owen-jones-have-a-woman-problem/

OP posts:
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TheHandmadeTails · 06/08/2021 12:17

I also enjoyed “pseudo-publication Pink News”.

beastlyslumber · 06/08/2021 12:22

Maybe women will evolve to shoot electricity out of their eyes haha, level the playing field

Have you read The Power? That is the basic premise of that novel (fingers not eyes) and it's brilliant!

Abhannmor · 06/08/2021 12:34

Good point @aliasundercover. It's a hard sell trying to convince some unemployed white guy in a trailer park in Michigan that he is privileged because he is less likely to be murdered by a policeman or indeed a police woman. This is no doubt the case but it just doesn't feel like Privilege which conjures up images of the rich or Hollywood royalty. Advantage is a better term. But back on LOJ - I loved his interview with Alexei Sayle. The latter obviously despises him !

PennineSpring · 06/08/2021 13:05

Poor ole, LOJ. He’s currently having a tantrum in twitter and proving DM’s point to the letter because his tantrum isn’t aimed at DM, it’s Janice Turner who’s getting it in the neck. Confused

That boy has no self-awareness.

Imnobody4 · 06/08/2021 13:09

Owen Jones has responded but not with bigot, transphobe etc no he's writing a response.
'I'm writing a response to hard right writer Douglas Murray - famed defender of women - and his farcically untruthful piece now.'

'In the meantime, the self-declared "moderates" approvingly sharing his piece have, alas, exposed themselves for what they are - and it ain't moderate. t.co/wLNMOk9py5'

twitter.com/VictoriaPeckham/status/1423606922763198466?s=19

Floisme · 06/08/2021 13:12

I think Janice Turner has the measure of OJ.

andyoldlabour · 06/08/2021 13:16

I agree with Douglas Murray. Ironically on OJ's wiki page, he "self-identifies" as a feministConfused
I personally think he should self-identify as delusional.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owen_Jones

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 06/08/2021 13:22

To be fair to Jones, he lives in a bit of a left wing bubble. He probably hasn't seen any real feminism and doesn't see that misogyny has been redefined by his fellow left wing men as 'something right wing men do'. A fish doesn't feel the water, or something.

pollyhemlock · 06/08/2021 13:52

Thing is, I don’t believe that deep down OJ really thinks that women such as JKR, Suzanne Moore, Sarah Ditum etc are ghastly transphobic bigots. These women have a long history of advocating for the oppressed. But he is now so entrenched and comfortable in the position he has taken up that he can’t back down from it. At all. And he is constantly affirmed by his followers.

nauticant · 06/08/2021 14:02

Whenever I look at yet another OJ triggered row on twitter, I'm struck by how his followers seem to include a lot of low grade individuals quick to resort to abuse who really do not like women (including in particular the woman that OJ has targeted in whatever today's row was over).

This kind of following will turn into an albatross that OJ is going to be stuck with. He might already be at the point where his output will need to be tailored to keep them on side.

SageHoney · 06/08/2021 14:25

@pollyhemlock

Thing is, I don’t believe that deep down OJ really thinks that women such as JKR, Suzanne Moore, Sarah Ditum etc are ghastly transphobic bigots. These women have a long history of advocating for the oppressed. But he is now so entrenched and comfortable in the position he has taken up that he can’t back down from it. At all. And he is constantly affirmed by his followers.
Agreed, but he is willing and arguably eager to throw these women, and women as an identifiable protected class, under the bus. NOT for any reasonable and reasoned vision of equality, however misguided, but to advance his own ... sorry, I don't know what to call it except self-aggrandising lucrative sexist hypercapitalist nonsense.

I personally know many people in Scotland - and yes, I know it's a niche situation - who were debating voting Labour vs SNP in December 2019 in the hope that a straight-up situation of more Labour than Conservative seats, even if no majority, would give Labour first chance to form a coalition government. As it turns out, it wouldn't have. I still think it's interesting that Own Jones's misogynist hypercapitalist shite tipped them SNP (and the SNP are not exactly feminists either).

I think sometimes in the wider UK we don't see the damage misogynists do to the political process because there really is a stark right (CON) vs left (LAB) choice, and they're both virulently misogynist. When CON moves a little toward recognising that women exist, LAB suffers - but then hardens their anti-woman position. It shouldn't be this way, but it is because LAB leadership are cowards, and won't throw out the misogynists in their ranks (but will throw out the feminists).

Own Jones is an opportunist. Yes, he sucks, but he's only relevant because misogynist cowards in the LAB leadership allow and encourage him to be. He's a hack.

RoyalCorgi · 06/08/2021 14:29

@pollyhemlock

Thing is, I don’t believe that deep down OJ really thinks that women such as JKR, Suzanne Moore, Sarah Ditum etc are ghastly transphobic bigots. These women have a long history of advocating for the oppressed. But he is now so entrenched and comfortable in the position he has taken up that he can’t back down from it. At all. And he is constantly affirmed by his followers.
I find it hard to work out what he really thinks. Perhaps he does look at these women with a long history of left-wing and, in many cases, gay rights activism and think they're right-wing transphobic bigots. OJ and his band of followers will use any evidence they can for this - eg writing for a right-wing newspaper, having right-wing colleagues, not having publicly condemned Giles Coren. It's pitiful stuff, but I think they get so high on their own moral self-righteousness that they can't even contemplate the possibility they might be wrong. It's very much the mentality of McCarthyism, witch-burning, Stalinism etc. There is absolutely no point in trying to reason with OJ because anything you say, however mild, moderate or reasonable will be used against you.
OP posts:
nauticant · 06/08/2021 14:37

The problem with leading a mob is that if you falter they'll devour you so your leadership needs morph*, at least in some senses, into also following the mob yourself.

  • not accidental
SmokedDuck · 06/08/2021 14:40

I don't think the concept of privilege is all that useful in general and worse, often results in sloppy analysis and lack of real nuance, and also failure to look at how systems work overall. And it's not necessary to explain the ideas it's trying to get across anyway. Yeah, being male can be an advantage in some settings. In others its a disadvantage. Society does not aways reward men for being men, if you are the wrong kind of man you will be seen as dangerous and useless, and your maleness is very much part of that.

Anyway - yes, OJ has an issue with women. I'm not sure what that's about really. Part of his problem with trans issues is that he hardened his view right from the outset - he is the kind of person who reflexively chooses a side and then can't easily change his view. It would really bother him to be "on the wrong side," this is a problem many people have that keeps them from really considering what they believe and accept as potentially true.

PronounssheRa · 06/08/2021 14:45

Whenever I look at yet another OJ triggered row on twitter, I'm struck by how his followers seem to include a lot of low grade individuals quick to resort to abuse who really do not like women

He really does have some interesting followers. A lot of his opinion has been so wide of the mark in recent years I really don't understand why anyone takes him seriously anymore, let alone pay him for his insights.

PronounssheRa · 06/08/2021 14:55

mobile.twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1423611835186561026

Thing is, I don’t believe that deep down OJ really thinks that women such as JKR, Suzanne Moore, Sarah Ditum etc are ghastly transphobic bigots

I think he has a visceral hatred of women who don't agree with him, and he will throw any slur at them to orchestrate pile ons or attempt to silence

pollyhemlock · 06/08/2021 15:08

@RoyalCorgi I completely agree with what you say. It’s impossible to argue with him. Yet I do wonder if the OJ of , say, ten years ago would have anticipated a future in which he was on the same side of the argument as people who believe that a gay man who doesn’t want to sleep with trans men because he prefers people with penises must be a transphobic penis fetishist. Yet here we are. I find the policing of people’s sexual tastes one of the most sinister aspects of the whole thing.

theThreeofWeevils · 06/08/2021 15:47

a visceral hatred of women who don't agree with him
To be fair, this isn't peculiar to Oweneen the Sprat, or even to TRAs, more's the pity

RoyalCorgi · 06/08/2021 16:41

OJ has replied. He's very angry:

owenjones84.medium.com/the-lies-of-anti-trans-rights-activists-need-to-be-rebutted-once-and-for-all-2780ad5f908

OP posts:
aliasundercover · 06/08/2021 16:52

He’s very angry

… and dishonest.

Thelnebriati · 06/08/2021 16:54

''Politics is, more often than not, about the exercise of power rather than truth. A narrative does not need to be honest to triumph: it simply needs to become the commonsense of the powerful.''

  • trans activists unwittingly reaching the point.
EmbarrassingAdmissions · 06/08/2021 16:54

[quote RoyalCorgi]OJ has replied. He's very angry:

owenjones84.medium.com/the-lies-of-anti-trans-rights-activists-need-to-be-rebutted-once-and-for-all-2780ad5f908[/quote]
archive version: archive.is/ZcOn5

Thelnebriati · 06/08/2021 16:56

Archived version;
archive.is/ZcOn5

NecessaryScene · 06/08/2021 17:05

trans activists unwittingly reaching the point.

Not even unwittingly - that's a lot of the foundation of all this woke stuff. The assertion that everything is about power - that there's no such thing as truth, and basically any assertion of truth is just a demonstration of power.

Everyone is arguing in bad faith, therefore it's pointless to argue in good faith.

Feel free to start digging in the terminology encyclopedia:

Truth
Power (systemic)
Critical

HDDD · 06/08/2021 17:21

Little OJ likes to play oppression top trumps - he sides with whoever he believes to be most oppressed and will not waiver - it has been pointed out to him time and time again but his ears are shut (when women speak)