Never thought I'd post on here but males on female hospital wards. Wtf

[ryzen]

I thought we were making progress by getting rid of mixed wards. I'm really upset by this. Can I do anything?!

I am a victim of endless sexual abuse and harassment.

I have suffered very much for being female and being physically weaker than most males. I do not want to ever have to end up on a ward with one. I actually hide away now due to the attacks I have suffered in public. I never get a taxi alone. I plan my days around being home before dark.

In all honesty I do avoid men but I feel I should be able to if I want to especially with something as intimate as my healthcare. I've read a report in the times today that says if a female does not want to be next to a trans person then they should be treated as a racist would. I find it disgusting to even compare these scenarios.

Safeguarding assumes that everyone is a risk to vulnerable person, be that a child or a vulnerable adult.
Simple because risky people don't announce themselves so you protect the vulnerable before all others.

So in youth groups safeguarding best practice would say that no adult is 121 with a child.
The simplest way of protecting women in a vulnerable state on a hospital ward is to not put men on the same ward.

Unfortunately many trans supporters will shout bigot, transphobia etc and do everything in their power to shut discussion down. I don’t think that is right, I think we need to keep having these discussions. The feelings of people born male cannot come above the safety of women.

It's not just our safety, because that will just be hand-waved away as a tiny statistical risk and prejudiced towards MTF trans people. Please also keep saying that women's feelings, our privacy, dignity, comfort in an environment where we feel safe are equally important to those of these male people too. Male feelings are being put above everything in this.

@JellySlice

I do not understand how women can worry about women's rights and women's vulnerabilities, yet totally discount the influence of males in these issues.

The separation between these boards is like my teenager. She understands the source and cause of women's oppression, she understands the differences between female and male bodies, she understands stereotypes. And yet TWAW - ND! No debate.

Separating these discussions is just pandering to teenage tantrums.

This. Every bit of it.

Anyone who think it's acceptable for men to be in women's spaces is not a feminist.

**They are being put on female wards because they say they are women. This includes sex offenders, by the way.

Trusts are telling staff to treat women who object to this as if they were racists and report them to the police for hate crime. In one case, they were told to deny women treatment if they object to being in bed next to a male sex offender**

This is disgusting. WTAF is happening at the minute…

@WhatsNext2021

Starting to hate this world its so messed up

This too. I'm struggling a lot and feeling very angry after all the olympics stuff too. So fucking sick of it all.

Exactly. They didn't want a debate. Tough. We made it a debate and now a lot of organisations who thought women should be the ones to give up their rights are feeling the heat. Keep the pressure on them.

Previous thread, OP Poppyred wrote, Thu 27-Sep-18

“Transwomen should be treated on female wards”
So says Olivia Butterwoth, leader of Patient and Public Voice team at NHS England.
This is a screenshot from the GG Twitter feed linked to on another thread. I noticed the conversation while reading through it.
I don’t know how influential her role is but I find it worrying that the leader of a group representing patients thinks this. I’ve spent enough time working on NHS wards to know how important single sex wards are to women going through gynaecology procedures, miscarriages and early pregnancy complications.
I also know how vulnerable I felt when I was one of those patients and how much I appreciated that the other patients around me were women.
Once again this is about not just safety, but the privacy and dignity of women and our right to sometimes have spaces free from males or male bodies"
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3378258--Transwomen-should-be-treated-on-female-wards

*OP, I am so sorry that you are upset. It really is a huge issue. As is transwomen sex offenders in prisons (I think about 50% of transwomen in prisons are sex offenders).

I absolutely respect their right to live their lives with the same rights as everyone else*

I respect trans women to have the same rights as everyone else - but certainly not sex offenders however they identify.
Male & female sex offenders have restricted rights because of their offenses and so should trans women.

Predatory males is exactly the reason that second wave feminists fought for single arc spaces in the 70’s. These fought for fundamental rights that so many have lived protected by for so long, are being removed as we speak.
The problem is that many of the younger generation do not even realise what’s going to happen and what is happening NOW as men invade our spaces.

Women deserve women only spaces and they should be protected.

@ryzen

It is awful, shocking and almost unbelievable. Not just the policy, but the rank misogyny behind it. Women are to be subjected to punitive measures to ensure compliance in their own, well oppression is the word. It's dystopian.

oppression
/əˈprɛʃ(ə)n/

noun
prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or exercise of authority.

And any woman who even witnesses it is also under threat.

That women are to be punished or have their treatment withheld if they object to being forced to sleep next to a rapist is inhumane and almost too horrifying to grasp.

But. We are not helpless. We have over 50% of the vote. And we have some fantastic champions. The article mentions Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne. She is shouldering many of these concerns and trying to get her voice heard in the House of Lords.

It's crazy that we even need to fight this dreadful take over of our most basic rights, but we do.

Write to the baroness. And your MP. Every voice is vital.

I'm so sorry for your experiences. And feel such rage on your behalf. Not diminished by the fact that even this female dominated forum hides women's concerns.

@WhatsNext2021

Starting to hate this world its so messed up

Me too. Makes me want to totally retreat from society.

How would hospital staff know somebody had a history of sexual offending?

It really is a huge issue. As is transwomen sex offenders in prisons (I think about 50% of transwomen in prisons are sex offenders).

I absolutely respect their right to live their lives with the same rights as everyone else

Male prisoners convicted of sexual offences are released from prison when they have served their sentence. NHS hospitals would not be aware of previous convictions of patients. Additionally, the majority of men who are perpetrators of sexual and/or violent offences against women are not successfully prosecuted.

@Thingybob

How would hospital staff know somebody had a history of sexual offending?

Indeed. The idea that they can do a risk assessment on every man, or any man come to that, is laughable. Perhaps they are of the 'we can tell' brigade.

But. We are not helpless. We have over 50% of the vote. And we have some fantastic champions. The article mentions Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne. She is shouldering many of these concerns and trying to get her voice heard in the House of Lords.

It's crazy that we even need to fight this dreadful take over of our most basic rights, but we do.

Write to the baroness. And your MP. Every voice is vital.

This ^^

Perhaps like Layla Moran they can see into souls.

@Thingybob

How would hospital staff know somebody had a history of sexual offending?

Here's a novel idea, because it might be quite difficult for hospital staff to know, how about we keep biological males, the people who commit the vast majority of sexual crimes, away from biological females, the people most likely to be their victims.

Really doesn't sound complicated does it? So how have we ended up here?

@OverTheRubicon

Isn't this supposed to be on the trans topic now?

Yes, that's right.

A male-bodied sex offender in the bed next to you when you're immobile and in pain is definitely not a question that should concern women in the slightest. It's simply a question of trans rights.

So tired of it now. That anyone suggests to assume potential offender makes women transphobic...

Really highlights that they actually have no idea what it is to be a woman, doesn't it. Seems that make privilege certainly doesn't disappear after transition.

January 2019 Telegraph article
'NHS trans row as men get access to women's wards if they identify as female'
By
Camilla Tominey, ASSOCIATE EDITOR and Joani Walsh

(extract)
"Hospitals routinely allow male patients to share female wards if they self-identify as women, an investigation by The Telegraph has found.

Despite official guidance intended to eliminate mixed sex wards, none of the NHS trusts in England require a patient to have begun transition for them to be treated as their preferred sex, according to responses to more than 100 Freedom of Information requests.

One trust even advises staff to consult with the transgender patient if a female victim of sexual assault objects to sharing facilities with someone who may be biologically and legally male.

The NHS is unable to track how many transgender people are accommodated on wards for the opposite sex because data systems record them as their “preferred” sex.

The Department of Health’s “elimination of mixed sex wards” guidance upon which individual trusts must base their policies says that “men and women should not have to share sleeping accommodation or toilet/bathroom facilities”. But the document adds, “except where it is in the overall best interests of the patient or reflects their patient choice”.

As a result, a physically intact male has the right to choose to be treated on a ward for women that is simultaneously declared to be single sex." (continues)

The Telegraph has been contacted by a nurse at a city hospital with a report of a patient identifying as a transgender woman who appeared to become sexually aroused on a female ward, causing distress to a group of elderly patients.

The incident raises concerns about the lack of “equality impact assessments” (EIAs) that should be undertaken by law to determine the effect on all groups that may be affected by transgender policy changes. EIAs seen by The Telegraph appear to have taken into account the impact only on transgender patients rather than on others who should also be considered because of their sex, age or religion." (continues)

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/01/10/nhs-trans-row-men-get-access-womens-wards-identify-female/
archived version archive.fo/Q23HE

thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3475792-Telegraph-article-NHS-trans-row-as-men-get-access-to-womens-wards-if-they-identify-as-female

Here's a novel idea, because it might be quite difficult for hospital staff to know, how about we keep biological males, the people who commit the vast majority of sexual crimes, away from biological females, the people most likely to be their victims.

Really doesn't sound complicated does it? So how have we ended up here?

The health service has always prioritised the needs of males. Even now that it has been widely acknowledged that this is the case, they continue to pursue the most extreme forms of male prioritisation, putting not only the needs, but the wants and feelings of males (including sex offenders) over the safety, recovery and dignity of women.

Do you know how hospitals work?

I was taken into hospital last year and placed on an all male ward. Adding me made the ward mixed

That was that

7 blokes and me in 1 room, and me shuffling to the loo in my gown that is open at the back, with my bare bottom on show

THAT is the much revered and much loved NHS (yes, staff are great, the system isn’t)

Saying you don’t want to be next to a trans person would be a pointless wish anyway, as you may be sharing a room with 7 men anyway

Such fun

Agree - it is horrifying!

@Thingybob

How would hospital staff know somebody had a history of sexual offending?

They wouldn't as far as I know. The patient would have to self declare it.

@MarleneDietrichsSmile

Do you know how hospitals work?

I was taken into hospital last year and placed on an all male ward. Adding me made the ward mixed

That was that

7 blokes and me in 1 room, and me shuffling to the loo in my gown that is open at the back, with my bare bottom on show

THAT is the much revered and much loved NHS (yes, staff are great, the system isn’t)

Saying you don’t want to be next to a trans person would be a pointless wish anyway, as you may be sharing a room with 7 men anyway

Such fun

Horrid. Was it an assessment unit? I’m thinking if you were in a gown it probably was. They can be considered exempt from legislation.

to assume criminal intent as a first point of risk is discriminatory.

NO. the naughty corner makes way for gaslighting like this.

Not assumption Trampolean. the title is "Patient safety fears as NHS allows trans sex offenders in female-only wards".they are convicted sex offenders. Did you even read the article? where's your empathy for the females assaulted in mixed sex wards? Any feelings for the heartbreaking stories on this thread alone?

I'm grateful that trans men and trans women are now speaking up about this nightmare. most people with empathy, including many LGBT don't agree with it. All human beings have a right to respect and dignity.

Here's the thread on the same topic, started in the naughty corner.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4313090-Telegraph-Patient-safety-fears-as-NHS-allows-trans-sex-offenders-in-female-only-wards