Never thought I'd post on here but males on female hospital wards. Wtf

[ryzen]

I thought we were making progress by getting rid of mixed wards. I'm really upset by this. Can I do anything?!

I am a victim of endless sexual abuse and harassment.

I have suffered very much for being female and being physically weaker than most males. I do not want to ever have to end up on a ward with one. I actually hide away now due to the attacks I have suffered in public. I never get a taxi alone. I plan my days around being home before dark.

In all honesty I do avoid men but I feel I should be able to if I want to especially with something as intimate as my healthcare. I've read a report in the times today that says if a female does not want to be next to a trans person then they should be treated as a racist would. I find it disgusting to even compare these scenarios.

Thank youRowantreesas always a mine of information which is astonishing to read. However much we think we know, there’s always more. And this thread should be in AIBU as it is important for every single one of us

Mostly the threads get reported and moved.

No one wants to hear about it. They just call us transphobic

Some earlier threads where these guidelines have been discussed:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3784009-Are-you-in-Devon-Bristol-North-Somerset-or-South-Gloucestershire-Tell-NHS-your-view-on-trans-guidelines-NOW

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3705528-New-NHS-guidance-on-same-sex-accommodation

I find it extraordinary and scary, really, that influence is being wielded at the highest levels. Can you imagine ten years ago being accused of being a bigot and threatened with no treatment if you objected to a man being in the next hospital bed?

Ten years ago Safeguarding was everything. And now it’s somehow come to pass that it’s synonymous with discrimination .

Do they really just accept someone’s say-so? Would they place any random bloke in a female ward because he requested it?

Yes and yes. Although on the latter, uttering the words 'I identify as a woman' might be needed.

And it would take a brave member of staff to say, “ Nice try, don’t make me laugh” as even a raised eyebrow would find them before a disciplinary committee.

Jo Bartosch writes a good article on this on Spiked

www.spiked-online.com/2021/08/03/women-need-their-own-hospital-wards/

How old are the patients on an adult ward these days?
I ask because I spent a terrifying week on a mixed sex adult ward in the 80s.
At 13, I was just a few months too old for the children’s ward.

Do they really just accept someone’s say-so? Would they place any random bloke in a female ward because he requested it?

As long as he claims to 'live as' a woman, at least part of the time. That's what the guidelines say, and they've been in place since 2009.

... good practice requires that clinical responses be patient-centred, respectful and flexible towards all transgender people who ... live continuously or temporarily in the gender role that is opposite to their natal sex. General key points are that:
• Trans people should be accommodated according to their presentation: the way they dress, and the name and pronouns that they currently use.
• This may not always accord with the physical sex appearance of the chest or genitalia;
• It does not depend upon their having a gender recognition certificate (GRC) or legal name change

See Annex E here:
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/200215/CNO_note_dh_098893.pdf

Archive link:
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20091105195026/www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/documents/digitalasset/dh_098893.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20091105195026/www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/documents/digitalasset/dh_098893.pdf

Just seen this on Twitter. It makes me feel sad that some NHS leaders flat out deny that there are situations where trans rights/self ID conflict with women’s rights.

docs.google.com/document/d/1Le7GtHyoxO0CqUIF03j92GqHlBqIH6JH8T5rz7GrXX0/mobilebasic

It means f* all when signatories have “inclusion” or “equality” in their job title. How many senior female nurses would sign this as opposed to someone sitting in an office (or at home) writing reams of waffle ?

Although if your job, nay career, depends upon it I’m sure most people would nod along and sign whatever claptrap is put in front of them. When it’s a case of “if you’re not with us you’re against us” the very best of us would regretfully reach for the pen.

@DottyHarmer

I find it extraordinary that the Devon trust states that you should be admitted to a ward based on the gender you identify as at point of admission.

Do they really just accept someone’s say-so? Would they place any random bloke in a female ward because he requested it?

I can imagine that if someone is transferred from prison for treatment then a risk assessment would be carried out (cousin some while back saw Ian Huntley at her local hospital - luckily leg-cuffed) but a hospital won’t have the time/resources to check out every patient - and of course Stonewall are bleating that it’s discriminatory to be cautious about a man wanting to be on a female ward.

NHS hospitals don't have access or reason to do criminal convictions background checks on patients. What would be the outcome if they did?

The only circumstances where an offender's criminal convictions/status would be risk assessed is, as you say, during a transfer from prison (the patient is still in custody) and in some psychiatric settings where offending risk is linked to a patient's mental health condition and relevant to the care plan.

Both the existence of GRA 2004 and 'gender dysphoria' diagnosis require/expect that an individual "live in role" as the opposite sex/'gender identity'. The inevitable consequence of this is the expectation that hospitals "place any random bloke in a female ward because he requests it". Either NHS single sex accomodation is single sex and female accomodation (wards/showers/toilets) excludes all male patients or it is mixed sex by self-identification. The early documents make clear that included in the group of male patients covered by trans inclusive policies are 'cross dressers' (men who occasionally wear women's clothing for their sexual pleasure).

The Head Of Public Participation And Engagement Olivia Butterworth blocked Jean Hatchett for talking about women's legal right to single sex wards.
That's an odd response for someone who's for inclusion.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3951102-nhs-england-head-of-public-participation-tells-survivors-to-stay-in-their-lane?msgid=97821249

[quote Cattenberg]Just seen this on Twitter. It makes me feel sad that some NHS leaders flat out deny that there are situations where trans rights/self ID conflict with women’s rights.

docs.google.com/document/d/1Le7GtHyoxO0CqUIF03j92GqHlBqIH6JH8T5rz7GrXX0/mobilebasic[/quote]
The conflict is with the responsibility of NHS hospitals to Safeguard female patients and the Duty of Care that HCPs have to all patients. The positioning of the issue as 'conflict of rights' disregards the Safeguarding framework and best practice.

It should be a cause for concern that senior NHS employees including Associate Medical Director, Consultant, Foundation Trust Chair, Clinical Lead and Managers subscribe to an ideological belief that hinders making Safeguarding decisions based on sex. Particularly when they also refuse to discuss the consequences to female patients' welfare.

Document linked above,
'Open statement by NHS Leaders in support of and affirming our trans & non-binary service users, colleagues and wider community in light of the rising hostile environment they face.'
(extract)
"The Health Service Journal published an opinion piece some weeks ago by a former NHS chief executive. The piece calls for NHS Trusts to stop working with Stonewall, an LGBTQ+ organisation, citing a list of reasons, mainly centred around their position on not debating trans and non-binary rights. The piece goes on to also discuss what the author’s views are the dangers and risks the inclusion of trans and non-binary people pose to others.

Whilst we don’t want to address all of the points raised in this piece, there are a number of points we do feel in response it is important we make. These are:

   i.        Guidance as far back as 2008 was published by the Department of Health on including trans and non-binary people within single gender hospital spaces based on their gender identity not their sex assigned at birth, was not first mentioned in 2019.

  ii.        <strong>We believe no woman should be framed as a potential risk to others or have their ability to access care limited simply because of another protected characteristic they may hold (in this case being trans)</strong> and a care provider’s refusal to affirm their identity as a result.

 iii.        We believe trans women are women, trans men are men and non-binary people are non-binary, we respect and value the identities of people from all communities - trans and non-binary people are no different.

It would appear to us that the HSJ article is another example of framing one oppressed community against another in a debate without consideration for the potential harm or negative impact on the wellbeing of a community this may have.

The HSJ’s editor on social media said that he would welcome trans and non-binary people contacting him to “join the debate”.

But there is not a debate to be had in the NHS that sets one group’s rights in opposition to another’s." (continues)

NB "This letter is from cisgender NHS leaders who consider themselves trans & non-binary allies and has been supported by members of the Trans NHS Staff Network. (A network of over 160 trans & non-binary colleagues working across the NHS)"

'Open statement by NHS Leaders
We believe trans women are women

This is self ID

Why on earth have they issued a statement about their beliefs?

Feel free to hold those beliefs, but imposing an ideology on an organisation and forcing those who pay your salary and who are sick and vulnerable to accept it under threat of withheld treatment or calling the police is many steps too far.

It's time there was a widespread cull of these so-called "diversity" and "inclusion" roles. They don't do what they say on the tin - instead they represent very narrow perspectives and actively include large sections of the population.

@GCAcademic

Why on earth have they issued a statement about their beliefs?

Feel free to hold those beliefs, but imposing an ideology on an organisation and forcing those who pay your salary and who are sick and vulnerable to accept it under threat of withheld treatment or calling the police is many steps too far.

It's time there was a widespread cull of these so-called "diversity" and "inclusion" roles. They don't do what they say on the tin - instead they represent very narrow perspectives and actively include large sections of the population.

Quite so.

What other beliefs do the NHS require people to hold in order to access health care?

I see Baroness Nicholson has raised this as a concern in the (sorry) Daily Mail. It came though our coms office.

And do these beliefs override patients beliefs?

How does this cater to muslim patients? jehovahs witnesses, women in hospital due to domestic assault etc?

ii. We believe no woman should be framed as a potential risk to others or have their ability to access care limited simply because of another protected characteristic they may hold (in this case being trans) and a care provider’s refusal to affirm their identity as a result.

Haven't they also said that women who don't subscribe to their belief system (that TWAW) can have their access to care limited? The belief that humans can't change sex is also protected in law. Have they forgotten that? And isn't it already the case that women who feel unable to share a hospital ward with a male-bodied person for whatever reason are being denied care?

They seem to believe that there is a hierarchy of rights and protected characteristics, in which 'gender reassignment' (regardless of whether any physical reassignment has actually taken place) is more important than sex, and the belief that TWAW is more important than any religious beliefs held. Women who do not believe that people can change sex are are labelled 'transphobic' and their human rights can be denied because they are considered to be barely human.

Nobody is suggesting that trans people shouldn't have a right to medical care. Just that they shouldn't have access to hospital wards which are supposed to be for people of the opposite sex.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Thank youRowantreesas always a mine of information which is astonishing to read. However much we think we know, there’s always more. And this thread should be in AIBU as it is important for every single one of us

Mostly the threads get reported and moved.

No one wants to hear about it. They just call us transphobic

Not strictly true. Whenever there is a poll in AIBU, it's usually overwhelmingly in our favour. It's more like a vocal minority who don't want us out of our boxes and will complain to MNHQ to have a thread moved.

ii. We believe no woman should be framed as a potential risk to others or have their ability to access care limited simply because of another protected characteristic they may hold (in this case being trans) and a care provider’s refusal to affirm their identity as a result.

The 'limits' to care are due to patients and HCPs' sex rather than 'trans' status, specifically that they are male and in circumstances where female patients or staff are vulnerable. The 'limits' being that all male patients and staff, regardless of their 'gender identity' should be excluded and/or chaperoned where single sex Safeguards are in place. There should be no detriment to male patients and HCPs being treated as other male patients and HCPs who do not have a gender identity or identify as 'cisgender'.

Unfortunately the result is usually it get moves though. It's infuriating. Seems everyone wants the benefit of what feminists fight for but none of the "guilt by association "

Also incredibly infuriating that the blame for not speaking up usually falls on feminists even though they have been sabotaged, blocked, fired, spoken to by the police every step of the way.

Has anyone (nurse for example) done a NHS safeguarding or equality course recently?

They all seem to be online. You get an instant pass/fail. And any "gender" questions have "right" answers that allow no nuance.

So unless you toe the line, you fail. Full stop. There isn't even a comment box to suggest better worded questions. So there is no way an ordinary member of staff can not go along with this.