Some thoughts on trans, the media and society

[Nefelibata33]

Hello everyone, I'm starting a new thread, cos I posted this message on a thread about Dr Helen Webberley, but people said they didn't want to discuss it, cos the thread was specifically about Dr Webberley. So I thought I would post my message for everyone to see, in a new thread. I think it's worth reading, I would like to discuss things with people. If you want to say something, please do. I will talk to anyone. Abuse me if you want, but I'd prefer if you didn't. I couldn't give a sh*t tbh. Sending love xxx. Here's my original message below

Hi everyone.

Just a post to say something. Firstly, if you are really concerned about big pharma, check that the NHS is in league with big pharma, and they dish out drugs like they're smarties. I have no idea what state you may be in, but you may have experience of this. I find it totally scary that so many people are getting hooked on drugs, cos a doctor prescribed it. This really isn't ok. As an example, a few years ago, they changed the blood sugar reading for which you can be described as diabetic. So more people could be diagnosed as diabetic, and more people could be given diabetic meds, and hey... a GP gets a bonus every time they diagnose someone as diabetic. I think the NHS is great, the nurses who are ready to sacrifice their own lives to help others, like Florence Nightingale. Like my Grandma. Like one of my cousins. But the ones who sit in offices and dish out drugs, they are a real problem.

Why am I saying this? Because doctors will dish out every drug going, even when they have horrendous side effects, make people actually feel worse than they were to begin with. Do we hear anything about this in the media? No. It doesn't sell papers. Any sort of backlash against big pharma? No. Because the media are onside with the mega rich pharmaceutical company directors getting richer and the poor getting poorer, not that the media would say that. Is there a type of drug doctors aren't allowed to dish out? Yes, oestrogen or testosterone.

This is the only thing no doctor can prescribe. There are plenty of countries around the world that take a different approach to trans people, and it's not so difficult to get hormones. With no disasters taking place. Keira Bell got a lot of attention. One person that made a mistake, amongst the thousands of trans kids who are happy as they are. One person. The media made a big deal of it.

Would it be wrong if I said that the media in this country have an axe to grind against any minority group? The Sun carried out a massive racist hate campaign against Raheem Sterling a few years ago. Britain's most prominent black footballer, it wasn't racist at all. You saw the racist abuse thing after England didn't win the Euros. It's absolutely shameful that so many people think it's OK to send someone death threats, JUST BECAUSE THEIR SKIN IS A DIFFERENT COLOUR. Encouraged by the Sun. The tabloids are the cancer of this country, our society would be much better without them I think, but we're stuck with them. They killed Princess Diana. A woman who was in the prime of her life, so happy, and bang... killed by the tabloids. There was a massive outpouring of emotion, but did it stop anyone from buying the tabloids? No. Nobody learns. I've read on this site, all this woke this woke that. Prince Harry has been accused of being woke. Cos he married a mixed race woman, and he doesn't want her to end up like his Mum. Think about it. Not "woke", a loving human being.

I don't get the woke thing. It's just a word that has been invented to describe someone who cares for social justice, and is right on. Can someone please explain to me why that's so bad? I really don't get it. Why are kind people a problem? Could it be, that there are just a lot of people who aren't very kind?

Back onto the media, they are totally corrupt, lying bullshtters. GB News is really struggling, so to boost ratings, they decided to attack the Trans community. To boost ratings! I guess that's more entertaining for the sort of people who watch it. I am now going to say something. I don't care who you are, but just realise this. Trans people are being treated just like gays were 20 or 30 years ago. The media do this to sell papers, and make money. Rupert Murdoch is Australian, he's an immigrant, but his papers bang on about immigration. Fcking hypocrite. The demonisation of Trans people is just part of a large scale war by the right wing/neo nazi movement. Are any of you reading this wondering now? It's part of a nazi thing. Caring for children is one thing, but demonising a group of people who just happened to be so unlucky that they were born in the wrong body is another. Have a heart, people. No transgender person wants to hurt you, or your children. They are not dangerous to anyone, the women's toilets, shelters, changing rooms in clothes shops... This is the truth. You don't get the truth in the papers. The papers don't have anyone's best interest at heart, they are just trying to make money.

I've said what I needed to say. I came on Mumsnet cos I'd heard of it, and I wanted to see how people think. I've received quite a bit of abuse off people, quite nasty, and some questions about my level of intelligence. Don't worry, I'm intelligent, and I won't stoop to the level of insulting someone else for being different, or having different opinions.

I am a feminist. There, I said it. I would die to protect a woman. So how come so many so called feminists are against Trans women? Do you actually believe a Trans woman is going to rape you in the toilets? NEWS! Trans women don't hurt or kill women, MEN DO. Trans women are not men. No Trans woman wants to hurt you. It's just the sort of fcked up shtbag men that want to hurt you.

If anyone wants to comment on anything I wrote, feel free. Make it intelligent, no gratuitous abuse please X

We're not all bad. I'm sorry, a few isolated cases don't make a whole group of people bad.

Yes, we know. But the whole basis of safeguarding is to assume the worst of everyone until proven otherwise (and even then, there should be further ongoing checks). The vast majority of people who want to work in schools are no threat to children. But we know through horrible experience that there are some predators who will seek to work in schools and so we have checks for everyone.

We are not saying that all men or all transwomen are violent or predators but as a sex class, they are more likely to be. Self ID in particular gives a loophole to predators, however they identify, to evade safeguarding (in this case, single sex spaces) and have access to women when they are vulnerable.

Women aren't human shields. Women should not be used as part of an experiment about the value of single sex spaces. The acceptable number of women being harmed by the inclusion of males in female spaces is 0.

I don't hate you @Nefelibata33, I don't know you. I do, however, hate your attitude and have zero respect for you due to the way you have behaved on this thread, and that's down to you not me.

I don't know what to say. Just because there are bad people in a group, it doesn't make everyone bad

No it doesn't make everyone in that group bad, but it is the core starting point of safeguarding as it is built on the worst case scenario as it should be. No-one, absolutely no-one, no group, absolutely no group is or should be deemed a sacred caste and given a free pass. Recent history is full of the consequences and damaged, broken humans as a result of ignoring this basic tenet of safeguarding.

Single sex spaces and services for women are there for the safety, dignity, comfort and privacy of women, the female sex class of humans. Transwomen are not women, they are of the male sex class of humans, not the female sex class of humans and therefore should be subject to exactly the same rules applied to every other member of their sex class.

Chickenyhead

And how do you feel about the fact that biological women who belong to certain religions are not able to mix with biological men, to whom they are not related? I am talking about places where there might be some undressing / medical procedures etc.
BTW, I'm the last person to have any religious beliefs, but I can understand the immense distress caused by such actions and empathize with them. Why should a trans person's rights take precedence over their right to be observant?

On another point;when I was working, I had to have a criminal records check as I worked with vulnerable people. I didn't take offence. As others have said, I understood that one person being harmed was one too many, so everyone had to be checked to find that one person who could cause harm. If you start from that base, then you can understand why women want to keep their safe spaces.

Whatever sympathy I offer just doesn't seem like enough, Chickenyhead. It makes me very cross that people don't realise that being kind and "inclusive" to transwomen means ignoring the needs of women who have been traumatised by men. There are so many of you and so few people paying attention.

You're all female, how would you like it if you'd been born with male genitalia

If I had been born with male genitalia, then I would be male and would have benefited from the same male privilege that born males have. If I had been born male, I would use that privilege to support women, not insist that I was also one of them and aggressively insert myself uninvited into the spaces that are supposed to keep women safe.

We are not saying that all men or all transwomen are violent or predators but as a sex class, they are more likely to be.

I think it's worth saying here that, yes, a value judgment has been made, and a cost-benefit analysis.

Generally speaking, society is against risk profiling. It is explicitly outlawed in some ways, for example race.

There may or may not be real statistical risk differences in certain other areas where some form of group-based profiling might possibly make sense. But the statistical differences are small enough that we let the principal of non-discrimination take over and say, no, we will not treat people of different racial groups differently.

However, male vs female is utterly different in terms of the actual risk statistics. Perpetrators of violent crime are overwhelmingly male and sexual crime almost exclusively male. There is a predator/prey relationship between males and females. (And this is hardly unique to humans). And this isn't just an indirect correlation, it directly arises from non-human-specific sex-based behaviour.

The actual behaviour differences, and physical ability to defend oneself, differs so much between males and females, that acknowledging that and permitting male/female discrimination - IN LIMITED CIRCUMSTANCES - is ultimately the fairer solution. Like male/female categorisation in sport, this limited sex discrimination is ultimately INCLUSIVE. It allows women to take part more fully in society. Not having that limited male/female separation would EXCLUDE the female 50% of the population from many parts of life.

The UK's Equality Act 2010 was quite carefully worded to bring all this together. Discrimination on grounds of sex, race, disability etc are all broadly outlawed. Then certain limited exceptions are granted to permit sex discrimination for the reasons above. The overarching principle is non-discrimination, but sometimes we have to discriminate for equity and inclusion, and to avoid a form of indirect discrimination where women are disadvantaged by their physical sex.

@Jorriss

You're all female, how would you like it if you'd been born with male genitalia

If I had been born with male genitalia, then I would be male and would have benefited from the same male privilege that born males have. If I had been born male, I would use that privilege to support women, not insist that I was also one of them and aggressively insert myself uninvited into the spaces that are supposed to keep women safe.

This a million times.

I feel really disgusted, having looked at all of it. We're not all like that, believe me. These are just examples of the worst kind of behaviour possible

Great. So seeing as male pattern violence doesn't change when a male identifies as a female, can you tell me how we are supposed to know which born males are ok, and which ones aren't, when they are identifying into women's spaces? Because it's not possible to look at someone and just tell. Is it.

No one thinks all trans people are bad or violent but when the end point of an ideology is to accept anyone who says they are women (up to the most violent and dangerous) is advocating for a very dangerous situation for women.

However devastating it is to read is not the same as being a vulnerable woman locked in a cell and being assaulted.

Please campaign for safe wings or separate facilities for transwomen to keep everyone safe, which is what we all want.

And I am focussing on the worst bit of this ideology (note ideology not people) because as rubbish I think it is for women to self exclude from sports, changing rooms etc knowing that a) women imprisoned with sex offenders will be the ones that come off worst and b) women who self exclude from DV shelters may end up being murdered. And I’d like both women and trans women to avoid that. I wish the same could be said for some vocal activists.

@Nefelibata33

I didn't ignore the links.

I feel really disgusted, having looked at all of it. We're not all like that, believe me. These are just examples of the worst kind of behaviour possible.

Every group of people has good and bad elements. I guess there are plenty of women who are nasty. There are loads of men who are nasty.

I don't know what to say. Just because there are bad people in a group, it doesn't make everyone bad. But I had never read these stories. I feel really sad, reading all that. Devastated.

We are not all like that. I have nothing but love for other people, and so many people like me are basically decent people. There are shtty people and not shtty people. In every walk of life.

We're not all bad. I'm sorry, a few isolated cases don't make a whole group of people bad.

Classic deflection, faced with the evidence and finally looking at it this is your response NATWALT? Exactly the same as every man who says NAMALT when faced with the appalling statistics of VAWG perpetrated by men.

You still think that despite all evidence to the contrary TW and you especially should be exempt from abiding by the boundaries and safeguarding criteria in place to protect women and girls.

@Chickenyhead 💐

@NecessaryScene thank you

@emlouwat

I've not read your entire post. Got as far as GPs getting a bonus every time they diagnose someone with 'diabetes'

What bollocks

There is some truth in it to be fair, if you believe the DM.

GPs will receive a bonus of £11.50 for every obese patient they refer for weight management help as part of the Government's anti-obesity drive.

GPs can also refer patients to other services, including the NHS Diabetes Prevention Programme, which teaches people at risk of the disease how to change their behaviours to avoid condition to avoid developing it.

The BMA last night labelled the scheme 'micromanagement' from NHS bosses and said it was clinically and practically flawed.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9700567/amp/GPs-paid-bonus-11-50-obese-patient-refer-weight-management-help.html

@LoislovesStewie I’d be very interested to hear OP’s view on religion.
I frequent Reddit (horrid place!) and read an appalling thread the other day on AITA. The poster practiced Islam and was asking if it was wrong of her to refuse to remove her head scarf in front of a TW ( The post was more detailed but I won’t paraphrase the whole thing) The replies were nothing short of Islamophobic. People genuinely thought the OP was a bigot and her religion needs to change.

@SourAppleChew

"GPs will receive a bonus of £11.50 for every obese patient they refer for weight management help as part of the Government's anti-obesity drive.

GPs can also refer patients to other services, including the NHS Diabetes Prevention Programme, which teaches people at risk of the disease how to change their behaviours to avoid condition to avoid developing it."

The bonus would be for referring obese patients for weight management help and to the diabetes prevention programme. Note the word 'prevention' and the description of what the programme does.

It would not be for diagnosing diabetes or for prescribing insulin.

OP (Nefelibata33) wrote - "You are all biological females, I'm not. See me as a human being just like you".

In patriarchy, male people are actually seen as the most human and females are seen as less human. The default for most things is male because female is seen as inferior by people with power.

In patriarchy, male people are actually seen as the most human and females are seen as less human. The default for most things is male because female is seen as inferior by people with power.

I'm GC but I'm not sure about the above.

Working class men aren't respected by the very small % of men that run things. They're just pawns turning the cogs.

@SourAppleChew

In patriarchy, male people are actually seen as the most human and females are seen as less human. The default for most things is male because female is seen as inferior by people with power.

I'm GC but I'm not sure about the above.

Working class men aren't respected by the very small % of men that run things. They're just pawns turning the cogs.

They may not be respected but the patriarchal hierarchy will still prioritise working class men over women

I hate the patriarchy. Men are mostly tossers.

Most Trans women are beautiful humans, in my experience, the sort of people who would not hurt a fly, and just want to get on with life, without being constantly targeted by the media, TERFs, or anyone else. So you have managed to come up with some examples of Trans women doing something wrong. Well done, very good. Do you think these people represent the whole community? No. In every community there are sh*tty people. Christ, don't tar everyone with the same brush.

I think I could write and write and write and none of you would agree with me on anything. I feel so fed up, you see me as a man. OK. And you all mistrust men. OK. Fine. I don't blame you, I hate men, the vast majority. Except for Harrison Ford in Star Wars, maybe. I can now see what it's all about. Nothing to do with being open minded, or giving people the benefit of the doubt. Just warped paranoid minds.

I tried to put forward something intelligent, and I haven't received a single kind word. Just a load of crap and abuse. If you lot would treat every human being like a person, and not worry about what's between their legs, you'd be better off for it.

Sorry Chickenyhead, if I didn't address your post, if I had to address every post on here that was generally having a go at me and exasperated me, I'd be here all day. Argggh, this is so frustrating

They may not be respected but the patriarchal hierarchy will still prioritise working class men over women.

Usually until the point where somebody needs to be shipped overseas to die fighting in a trench.

I don't mean to cause offence but a lot of patriarchy theory is bollocks IMO and has been used to almost rewrite history. Men always did the dirty, dangerous jobs the fairer sex weren't allowed to, and these.jobs are still largely done by men with women showing little interest in being refuse collectors, sewage workers, etc.

It was a little patronising to be fair, which is why many people have rewritten it oppression rather than a 'ladies first' kind of sentiment where the man does the undesirable stuff.

@Nefelibata33

I hate the patriarchy. Men are mostly tossers.

Most Trans women are beautiful humans, in my experience, the sort of people who would not hurt a fly, and just want to get on with life, without being constantly targeted by the media, TERFs, or anyone else. So you have managed to come up with some examples of Trans women doing something wrong. Well done, very good. Do you think these people represent the whole community? No. In every community there are sh*tty people. Christ, don't tar everyone with the same brush.

I think I could write and write and write and none of you would agree with me on anything. I feel so fed up, you see me as a man. OK. And you all mistrust men. OK. Fine. I don't blame you, I hate men, the vast majority. Except for Harrison Ford in Star Wars, maybe. I can now see what it's all about. Nothing to do with being open minded, or giving people the benefit of the doubt. Just warped paranoid minds.

I tried to put forward something intelligent, and I haven't received a single kind word. Just a load of crap and abuse. If you lot would treat every human being like a person, and not worry about what's between their legs, you'd be better off for it.

Sorry Chickenyhead, if I didn't address your post, if I had to address every post on here that was generally having a go at me and exasperated me, I'd be here all day. Argggh, this is so frustrating

Please do not use that slur on here. It's very offensive.

Thank you SourAppleChew, finally someone agreed with something I said. You're a good person

@SourAppleChew

They may not be respected but the patriarchal hierarchy will still prioritise working class men over women.

Usually until the point where somebody needs to be shipped overseas to die fighting in a trench.

I don't mean to cause offence but a lot of patriarchy theory is bollocks IMO and has been used to almost rewrite history. Men always did the dirty, dangerous jobs the fairer sex weren't allowed to, and these.jobs are still largely done by men with women showing little interest in being refuse collectors, sewage workers, etc.

It was a little patronising to be fair, which is why many people have rewritten it oppression rather than a 'ladies first' kind of sentiment where the man does the undesirable stuff.

Women were t allowed to work. By men. Women have been told for centuries, by men, what they can and can't do.