Some thoughts on trans, the media and society

[Nefelibata33]

Hello everyone, I'm starting a new thread, cos I posted this message on a thread about Dr Helen Webberley, but people said they didn't want to discuss it, cos the thread was specifically about Dr Webberley. So I thought I would post my message for everyone to see, in a new thread. I think it's worth reading, I would like to discuss things with people. If you want to say something, please do. I will talk to anyone. Abuse me if you want, but I'd prefer if you didn't. I couldn't give a sh*t tbh. Sending love xxx. Here's my original message below

Hi everyone.

Just a post to say something. Firstly, if you are really concerned about big pharma, check that the NHS is in league with big pharma, and they dish out drugs like they're smarties. I have no idea what state you may be in, but you may have experience of this. I find it totally scary that so many people are getting hooked on drugs, cos a doctor prescribed it. This really isn't ok. As an example, a few years ago, they changed the blood sugar reading for which you can be described as diabetic. So more people could be diagnosed as diabetic, and more people could be given diabetic meds, and hey... a GP gets a bonus every time they diagnose someone as diabetic. I think the NHS is great, the nurses who are ready to sacrifice their own lives to help others, like Florence Nightingale. Like my Grandma. Like one of my cousins. But the ones who sit in offices and dish out drugs, they are a real problem.

Why am I saying this? Because doctors will dish out every drug going, even when they have horrendous side effects, make people actually feel worse than they were to begin with. Do we hear anything about this in the media? No. It doesn't sell papers. Any sort of backlash against big pharma? No. Because the media are onside with the mega rich pharmaceutical company directors getting richer and the poor getting poorer, not that the media would say that. Is there a type of drug doctors aren't allowed to dish out? Yes, oestrogen or testosterone.

This is the only thing no doctor can prescribe. There are plenty of countries around the world that take a different approach to trans people, and it's not so difficult to get hormones. With no disasters taking place. Keira Bell got a lot of attention. One person that made a mistake, amongst the thousands of trans kids who are happy as they are. One person. The media made a big deal of it.

Would it be wrong if I said that the media in this country have an axe to grind against any minority group? The Sun carried out a massive racist hate campaign against Raheem Sterling a few years ago. Britain's most prominent black footballer, it wasn't racist at all. You saw the racist abuse thing after England didn't win the Euros. It's absolutely shameful that so many people think it's OK to send someone death threats, JUST BECAUSE THEIR SKIN IS A DIFFERENT COLOUR. Encouraged by the Sun. The tabloids are the cancer of this country, our society would be much better without them I think, but we're stuck with them. They killed Princess Diana. A woman who was in the prime of her life, so happy, and bang... killed by the tabloids. There was a massive outpouring of emotion, but did it stop anyone from buying the tabloids? No. Nobody learns. I've read on this site, all this woke this woke that. Prince Harry has been accused of being woke. Cos he married a mixed race woman, and he doesn't want her to end up like his Mum. Think about it. Not "woke", a loving human being.

I don't get the woke thing. It's just a word that has been invented to describe someone who cares for social justice, and is right on. Can someone please explain to me why that's so bad? I really don't get it. Why are kind people a problem? Could it be, that there are just a lot of people who aren't very kind?

Back onto the media, they are totally corrupt, lying bullshtters. GB News is really struggling, so to boost ratings, they decided to attack the Trans community. To boost ratings! I guess that's more entertaining for the sort of people who watch it. I am now going to say something. I don't care who you are, but just realise this. Trans people are being treated just like gays were 20 or 30 years ago. The media do this to sell papers, and make money. Rupert Murdoch is Australian, he's an immigrant, but his papers bang on about immigration. Fcking hypocrite. The demonisation of Trans people is just part of a large scale war by the right wing/neo nazi movement. Are any of you reading this wondering now? It's part of a nazi thing. Caring for children is one thing, but demonising a group of people who just happened to be so unlucky that they were born in the wrong body is another. Have a heart, people. No transgender person wants to hurt you, or your children. They are not dangerous to anyone, the women's toilets, shelters, changing rooms in clothes shops... This is the truth. You don't get the truth in the papers. The papers don't have anyone's best interest at heart, they are just trying to make money.

I've said what I needed to say. I came on Mumsnet cos I'd heard of it, and I wanted to see how people think. I've received quite a bit of abuse off people, quite nasty, and some questions about my level of intelligence. Don't worry, I'm intelligent, and I won't stoop to the level of insulting someone else for being different, or having different opinions.

I am a feminist. There, I said it. I would die to protect a woman. So how come so many so called feminists are against Trans women? Do you actually believe a Trans woman is going to rape you in the toilets? NEWS! Trans women don't hurt or kill women, MEN DO. Trans women are not men. No Trans woman wants to hurt you. It's just the sort of fcked up shtbag men that want to hurt you.

If anyone wants to comment on anything I wrote, feel free. Make it intelligent, no gratuitous abuse please X

I’m a bit concerned that my comment could have come across as harsh to someone suffering with crippling gender dysphoria. If that’s the case OP, I hope that you are getting all the help you need to look after your mental health.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9819631/amp/I-sexually-assaulted-womens-prison-fellow-inmate-male-genitalia.html

Another transwoman rapist

You set up a thread about medical ethics after trying to wedge a derail into the Webberly thread.

You then derail your own thread by veering off into a denial that transwomen ever harm women. (Incidentally, if that is true why are trans sex offenders in prison? Or is this a massive miscarriage of justice? Please square that one.)

I expect you will be getting Mumsnet to delete this thread soon enough as the evidence here is not what you want to hear.

www.google.com/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2019/03/16/transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-morrisons-toilet-8914577/amp/

Another

Shall I continue indefinitely?

Will it make any difference to you?

What is going on here is very indicative of conversations I have had up and down twitter on this subject.

An example, I was speaking to one twitterer about how I felt the trans agenda was homophobic and basically, gay conversion therapy (I paraphrase)

• there is plenty of evidence that homophobic parents are 'transing away the gay' in their children; ashamed of having a lesbian daughter, they would rather have a transgender son

• that's crap! That's right wing propaganda Daily Mail hate speech and never happens! Prove it!!

• are you familiar with the Tavistock case? The witness statements from several ex clinicians mention homophobia...

• yes, I have read ALL the Tavistock evidence and didn't see that anywhere!

• okay, well here is a link to Dr David bell's interview on news night where he specifically states it. Its only 8 min long if you are pressed for time....

• yes, watched it. Didn't see him say that anywhere!!

• at about 5.17 he specifically states that clinicians came to him worried about homophobic parents wanting to put their gay children through conversion therapy

• no he doesn't! He doesn't say that! And he's a washed up hack who has been discredited for being a teansphobe and you are a Nazi!!! - block-

Don't really know why we bother.....

@Deliriumoftheendless

You set up a thread about medical ethics after trying to wedge a derail into the Webberly thread.

You then derail your own thread by veering off into a denial that transwomen ever harm women. (Incidentally, if that is true why are trans sex offenders in prison? Or is this a massive miscarriage of justice? Please square that one.)

I expect you will be getting Mumsnet to delete this thread soon enough as the evidence here is not what you want to hear.

Well I hope they don't. Nobody has been abusive and the OP has hardly revealed anything about themselves.

I mean people posting stuff about trans women raping and murdering women and children. PLEASE! When has that ever happened?

This has to be a wind-up, surely no one can be this obtuse in reality?

I agree chickenyhead no one has been abusive but I also know how some posters like to suppress valuable information that contradicts their arguments.

I think that's the point, @candylebonbon

It is gaslighting. Constantly telling you the sky is green when you are LOOKING at a blue sky, but with so much conviction you are starting to believe it.

I didn't ignore the links.

I feel really disgusted, having looked at all of it. We're not all like that, believe me. These are just examples of the worst kind of behaviour possible.

Every group of people has good and bad elements. I guess there are plenty of women who are nasty. There are loads of men who are nasty.

I don't know what to say. Just because there are bad people in a group, it doesn't make everyone bad. But I had never read these stories. I feel really sad, reading all that. Devastated.

We are not all like that. I have nothing but love for other people, and so many people like me are basically decent people. There are shtty people and not shtty people. In every walk of life.

We're not all bad. I'm sorry, a few isolated cases don't make a whole group of people bad.

I am a feminist. There, I said it. I would die to protect a woman.

Then what will you do to help female prisoners who are locked up with rapists, because the rapists claim that they’re women too?

@Nefelibata33

I didn't ignore the links.

I feel really disgusted, having looked at all of it. We're not all like that, believe me. These are just examples of the worst kind of behaviour possible.

Every group of people has good and bad elements. I guess there are plenty of women who are nasty. There are loads of men who are nasty.

I don't know what to say. Just because there are bad people in a group, it doesn't make everyone bad. But I had never read these stories. I feel really sad, reading all that. Devastated.

We are not all like that. I have nothing but love for other people, and so many people like me are basically decent people. There are shtty people and not shtty people. In every walk of life.

We're not all bad. I'm sorry, a few isolated cases don't make a whole group of people bad.

Where did anyone suggest that transwomen are all bad because of the people in those cases? Nowhere.

Not one person here thinks that.

We know that most transwomen are no harm OP. We know.

The same as not all men mean us harm.

But biological men and transwomen are a significant risk to biological women. That has been shown throughout history.

There is no way to identify the safe transwomen from the unsafe transwomen. The same way you cannot identify the safe men from the unsafe men.

Therefore biological women need protection from both. It really isn't unreasonable.

You don't need to die to protect women. All you need to do is respect women's boundaries.

Women only spaces & services are single sex for reasons of privacy, dignity and safety. You have no right to demand they are made mixed sex.

Can I just say to the people that suggested that I "hate women". What planet do you live on? I really want to try and work out how some of you think, because if you think that I hate women, you're just insane.

I kind of agree with this. I don't think you hate women, as such.

You just don't think they're real, unlike you.

So you're prepared to ignore them, trample over their rights, and pretty much do anything if it's what you want and they're in your way.

Maybe this is a spinoff of you seeing "woman" as some sort of role that can be played, rather than a material reality.

To actually hate them, you'd have to think they're people. I don't think you do.

I always try to put myself in someone else's shoes, when I talk to them. Put yourself in my shoes. You're all female, how would you like it if you'd been born with male genitalia? You wouldn't be very happy would you? It happens to some unlucky people. Do you think I enjoy being like this? No. I'm about as low as it gets, in modern day UK. But I'm still a human being, and I would just like to get some sort of feeling that I'm not the antichrist, or a danger to humanity, or a danger to children, or whatever. Can't anyone see that?

We're not all female. I'm not. I was born with male genitalia. I cope fine. I like women, I identify with them, most of my friends have been women, I find myself hanging out with them in places like this trying to get through to people like you. Never did get the hang of relating to men. So I think I've got at least as much of a "female soul" as you do. But I don't force myself on women, insist I'm the same as them, and try to get into female-only spaces, or say "I'm nice, so you should let any male-bodied person into your spaces on demand". That would be fucking stupid.

Due to their actual, real, physical bodies, women are at risk in a way you and I, being male, are not. Fortunately it is possible to massively mitigate that risk by letting women have a few - not many! - female-only spaces. This is easy, and effective, and massively decreases risk. The actual incidence of crime against women is lower than that against men, but ONLY because of that mitigation. I can't imagine being female and having to go into mixed-sex public spaces with no female-only spaces to retreat to. And that's the situation you're trying to create.

Sure, for any single male individual, it is possible to make them safer by letting them into an (otherwise) female space, but that reduces the safety of all the women, and does not scale. A straightforward male/female split is the only workable solution maintaining the dignity and safety of 50% of the population.

Would I want to go to a men's prison? No. I'd feel much safer in a women's prison. Who wouldn't? But that option obviously shouldn't be open to me, because if it's open to me, it's open to every other male. Logically female-only spaces are only every going to be available to females, or they stop being female-only. Sure, it sucks being part of the violent, more dangerous half of the population sometimes. BUT NOT AS MUCH AS BEING PART OF THE LESS VIOLENT, WEAKER HALF. Having the relief of a few female-only spaces hardly compensates. And now people like you want to take even that away from them.

You sicken me. You may identify "as" a women, but you certainly don't identify with them.

And quit with the hyperbole. I know women don't want me in their spaces. I don't take it personally, and I don't think they think I'm the "antichrist". Jesus. They're not singling me out, they're not singling you out, it's a broad protection measure applying to us and 3.5 billion like us. And I can't see any practical alternative.

I know you, for whatever reason, really, really, really want to be "one of them" in a way that I don't, so it clearly hurts you more to be excluded. But sorry, that's not enough. Your feelings and safety are not more important than women's. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Provisions such as third spaces make sense, but logically you cannot allow males into female-only spaces.

There are transwomen who respect women and do not insist on entering female spaces. People like Fionne Orlander or Seven Hex on Twitter - here doing the right thing. Campaigning for third spaces.

twitter.com/FionneOrlander/status/1421536332774576130
twitter.com/seven_hex/status/1419197456533831686

Be more like them. Then I'd find your "female soul" more convincing.

Another "why can't you just accept my viewpoint is the right and only one and stop having ideas and opinions of your own, women?" thread. Ho hum.

"I mean people posting stuff about trans women raping and murdering women and children. PLEASE! When has that ever happened?"

Why have you not read the posts referencing when that has happened? Or the posts explaining the issues around self-id opening safe spaces to any man?

It is such a basic courtesy to read or listen to what people are saying when you're talking to them.

And isn't emotional intelligence on the list of 'feminine' stereotypes?

@Nefelibata33

I didn't ignore the links.

I feel really disgusted, having looked at all of it. We're not all like that, believe me. These are just examples of the worst kind of behaviour possible.

Every group of people has good and bad elements. I guess there are plenty of women who are nasty. There are loads of men who are nasty.

I don't know what to say. Just because there are bad people in a group, it doesn't make everyone bad. But I had never read these stories. I feel really sad, reading all that. Devastated.

We are not all like that. I have nothing but love for other people, and so many people like me are basically decent people. There are shtty people and not shtty people. In every walk of life.

We're not all bad. I'm sorry, a few isolated cases don't make a whole group of people bad.

My husband is a lovely man, he is not a predator, he wouldn't hurt anyone, he is certainly not a danger to anyone.

Do you think my husband should be allowed into female only spaces? If not, why not?

That’s an almost impenetrable word salad. I’m afraid I couldn’t finish it

@NecessaryScene

Your post made me cry.

Thank you for putting it so well.

OP you asked for intelligent responses only of which you've had many and you haven't engaged with a single one of them. The closest you've come to that is say you don't have the energy (CBA) to respond, but you do feel able to continue with the non coherent, self absorbed rants.

What conclusion do you expect other posters and people reading this thread to make from that?

@Nefelibata33

I didn't ignore the links.

I feel really disgusted, having looked at all of it. We're not all like that, believe me. These are just examples of the worst kind of behaviour possible.

Every group of people has good and bad elements. I guess there are plenty of women who are nasty. There are loads of men who are nasty.

I don't know what to say. Just because there are bad people in a group, it doesn't make everyone bad. But I had never read these stories. I feel really sad, reading all that. Devastated.

We are not all like that. I have nothing but love for other people, and so many people like me are basically decent people. There are shtty people and not shtty people. In every walk of life.

We're not all bad. I'm sorry, a few isolated cases don't make a whole group of people bad.

We know that. We've never claimed that all transwoman are like that. Similarly we have never claimed that all men are like that. We don't hate men - we have husbands, fathers, sons. We love some men!

But we recognise that males AS A CATEGORY are more likely to harm us. So we ask for boundaries so that we can keep ourselves as safe as possible.

Our fathers, husbands and sons are happy to respect those boundaries. Because they belong to the category of people who are a threat. It's only transwoman who want to trample those boundaries. Despite the fact that they too belong to the category of potential threat.

Perhaps this helpful infographic from Pommie69's thread on Feminism:Chat will help with the notion that there are bad apples in every group.

Yes, there are, but the proportions are very different.

You sound like a lovely thoughtful person. Nobody is saying all trans ppl are bad though. Anymore than feminists are saying all men are bad - well 99% of feminists anyway. But comparing trans to gay rights just doesn't work in reality. Women's rights don't hurt men. Gay rights don't impinge on straight people's rights. Self ID does affect Women's and children's rights though - demonstrably. Men's rights also to a lesser extent . We can't just magic away this real conflict of interests with warm words or sloppy ill conceived legislation. None of which will help kids who are suffering body dismorphia , gender dysphoria or just confusion about their sexuality . I sincerely hope everything work out well for you in the future.

Transwomen, being male, are part of the blue circles, of course.