Some thoughts on trans, the media and society

[Nefelibata33]

Hello everyone, I'm starting a new thread, cos I posted this message on a thread about Dr Helen Webberley, but people said they didn't want to discuss it, cos the thread was specifically about Dr Webberley. So I thought I would post my message for everyone to see, in a new thread. I think it's worth reading, I would like to discuss things with people. If you want to say something, please do. I will talk to anyone. Abuse me if you want, but I'd prefer if you didn't. I couldn't give a sh*t tbh. Sending love xxx. Here's my original message below

Hi everyone.

Just a post to say something. Firstly, if you are really concerned about big pharma, check that the NHS is in league with big pharma, and they dish out drugs like they're smarties. I have no idea what state you may be in, but you may have experience of this. I find it totally scary that so many people are getting hooked on drugs, cos a doctor prescribed it. This really isn't ok. As an example, a few years ago, they changed the blood sugar reading for which you can be described as diabetic. So more people could be diagnosed as diabetic, and more people could be given diabetic meds, and hey... a GP gets a bonus every time they diagnose someone as diabetic. I think the NHS is great, the nurses who are ready to sacrifice their own lives to help others, like Florence Nightingale. Like my Grandma. Like one of my cousins. But the ones who sit in offices and dish out drugs, they are a real problem.

Why am I saying this? Because doctors will dish out every drug going, even when they have horrendous side effects, make people actually feel worse than they were to begin with. Do we hear anything about this in the media? No. It doesn't sell papers. Any sort of backlash against big pharma? No. Because the media are onside with the mega rich pharmaceutical company directors getting richer and the poor getting poorer, not that the media would say that. Is there a type of drug doctors aren't allowed to dish out? Yes, oestrogen or testosterone.

This is the only thing no doctor can prescribe. There are plenty of countries around the world that take a different approach to trans people, and it's not so difficult to get hormones. With no disasters taking place. Keira Bell got a lot of attention. One person that made a mistake, amongst the thousands of trans kids who are happy as they are. One person. The media made a big deal of it.

Would it be wrong if I said that the media in this country have an axe to grind against any minority group? The Sun carried out a massive racist hate campaign against Raheem Sterling a few years ago. Britain's most prominent black footballer, it wasn't racist at all. You saw the racist abuse thing after England didn't win the Euros. It's absolutely shameful that so many people think it's OK to send someone death threats, JUST BECAUSE THEIR SKIN IS A DIFFERENT COLOUR. Encouraged by the Sun. The tabloids are the cancer of this country, our society would be much better without them I think, but we're stuck with them. They killed Princess Diana. A woman who was in the prime of her life, so happy, and bang... killed by the tabloids. There was a massive outpouring of emotion, but did it stop anyone from buying the tabloids? No. Nobody learns. I've read on this site, all this woke this woke that. Prince Harry has been accused of being woke. Cos he married a mixed race woman, and he doesn't want her to end up like his Mum. Think about it. Not "woke", a loving human being.

I don't get the woke thing. It's just a word that has been invented to describe someone who cares for social justice, and is right on. Can someone please explain to me why that's so bad? I really don't get it. Why are kind people a problem? Could it be, that there are just a lot of people who aren't very kind?

Back onto the media, they are totally corrupt, lying bullshtters. GB News is really struggling, so to boost ratings, they decided to attack the Trans community. To boost ratings! I guess that's more entertaining for the sort of people who watch it. I am now going to say something. I don't care who you are, but just realise this. Trans people are being treated just like gays were 20 or 30 years ago. The media do this to sell papers, and make money. Rupert Murdoch is Australian, he's an immigrant, but his papers bang on about immigration. Fcking hypocrite. The demonisation of Trans people is just part of a large scale war by the right wing/neo nazi movement. Are any of you reading this wondering now? It's part of a nazi thing. Caring for children is one thing, but demonising a group of people who just happened to be so unlucky that they were born in the wrong body is another. Have a heart, people. No transgender person wants to hurt you, or your children. They are not dangerous to anyone, the women's toilets, shelters, changing rooms in clothes shops... This is the truth. You don't get the truth in the papers. The papers don't have anyone's best interest at heart, they are just trying to make money.

I've said what I needed to say. I came on Mumsnet cos I'd heard of it, and I wanted to see how people think. I've received quite a bit of abuse off people, quite nasty, and some questions about my level of intelligence. Don't worry, I'm intelligent, and I won't stoop to the level of insulting someone else for being different, or having different opinions.

I am a feminist. There, I said it. I would die to protect a woman. So how come so many so called feminists are against Trans women? Do you actually believe a Trans woman is going to rape you in the toilets? NEWS! Trans women don't hurt or kill women, MEN DO. Trans women are not men. No Trans woman wants to hurt you. It's just the sort of fcked up shtbag men that want to hurt you.

If anyone wants to comment on anything I wrote, feel free. Make it intelligent, no gratuitous abuse please X

If you are at all interested, I suggest that you read an article by Claudia Elphicke on the history of public toilets in the UK. As ever, men did not want women to have these facilities, as it would mean that women weren't chained to their home. They would be able to travel, take paid employment and have a life if they could find a place to urinate/defecate. You might be interested to learn that public lavatories for women only became common after World War 1, when clearly women were doing 'men's work'. The great social upheaval of those times forced the building of ladies loos. Until then, men had public lavatories but would actively resist women having the same, going so far as to vandalize any that were built. So in the last 100 years we have gone from women getting their own safe spaces to carry out natural functions to women being told, by some transwomen, that we can't keep those very basic, safe spaces.
FWIW, I think every person should have safe spaces;just not by causing distress or detriment to biological women. Most men now understand this, why don't you?

@SourAppleChew

The patriarchy is as damaging for men as it is for women. It's not an either or situation. Both sexes are negatively affected.

I agree.

I guess there are varying degrees in how far you believe men are privileged. I always roll my eyes a bit when some women make out that men breeze through life. The only people I've seen breeze through life are people like my boss's ex wife who has barely worked a day in her life and has now amassed considerable personal wealth from using her considerable beauty to marry very rich men - it's certainly not her brains. But she is undoubtedly one of the privileged elite.

Most men are stuck in the rat race and will work till 65. At the bottom you have men doing the dirtiest jobs, and in the more professional sectors men seem to be more privileged on the whole but are much more likely to make enough money that their wife doesn't have to work full time and can forego the stress of a career job (something which is often frowned upon on here but is no doubt a privilege for women who don't want to work or aren't intellectually gifted - they can still marry a successful man and live a great quality of life in a way which a dimwitted male won't likely ever be able to).

In this context that isn't what male privilege means though.

I tried to put forward something intelligent, and I haven't received a single kind word. Just a load of crap and abuse.

If only women were as kind as these transwomen

@WallaceinAnderland

I tried to put forward something intelligent, and I haven't received a single kind word. Just a load of crap and abuse.

If only women were as kind as these transwomen

OP wants kindness, not women's actual, reasoned, researched, or considered opinions.

Most Trans women are beautiful humans, in my experience, the sort of people who would not hurt a fly, and just want to get on with life, without being constantly targeted by the media, TERFs, or anyone else. So you have managed to come up with some examples of Trans women doing something wrong. Well done, very good. Do you think these people represent the whole community? No. In every community there are shtty people. Christ, don't tar everyone with the same brush*.

This alone shows your utter disregard for the very basics of safeguarding, this has been explained to you yet still you come back with this. What you seem to want is that you and all TW are given a special pass that elevates you above everyone else. When what never happens does happen then what? What are you personally going to say to the victims, and I mean actually to their faces, in person?

I think I could write and write and write and none of you would agree with me on anything. I feel so fed up, you see me as a man. OK. And you all mistrust men. OK. Fine. I don't blame you, I hate men, the vast majority. Except for Harrison Ford in Star Wars, maybe. I can now see what it's all about. Nothing to do with being open minded, or giving people the benefit of the doubt. Just warped paranoid minds.

Giving people the benefit of the doubt - that's worked really well in the past and present hasn't it? Karen White given the benefit of the doubt numerous times, look how well that went - one of the women he raped was so badly damaged she will likely never have children. Katie Dolatowski was given the benefit of the doubt and two children, that's right children were the collateral damage of that. Priests were given the benefit of the doubt, Nuns were given the benefit of the doubt, sports coaches were given the benefit of the doubt, Jimmy Saville was given the benefit of the doubt. What is the number of people damaged and destroyed by others being given the benefit of the doubt that is acceptable to you?

Those are the facts, the evidence is there for all to see, including you. It's not paranoia or being closed minded, it is cold, harsh reality.

I tried to put forward something intelligent, and I haven't received a single kind word. Just a load of crap and abuse.

That is a load of disingenuous rubbish, many posts on here have shown you a kindness that imo you do not warrant. The posts here have been backed by evidence, disagreeing with you is not abuse.

If you lot would treat every human being like a person, and not worry about what's between their legs, you'd be better off for it.

You respond with this after all the evidence you have been provided with? You dismiss the well evidenced concerns of women and girls and yet claim to be prepared to die for them? For the record, I do treat every human being as a person, I judge them on the content of their character. However, I will not relax safeguarding for anyone, it must apply across the board. Again, it has been evidenced to you the reasons why the male sex class is segregated from the female sex class in certain situations, you dismiss this as worrying about what's between peoples legs and this is a perfect illustration of your entire attitude to women and girls.

Sorry Chickenyhead, if I didn't address your post, if I had to address every post on here that was generally having a go at me and exasperated me, I'd be here all day. Argggh, this is so frustrating

You read Chikenyhead's posts and you still respond in this offensive manner?

@SourAppleChew

The patriarchy is as damaging for men as it is for women. It's not an either or situation. Both sexes are negatively affected.

I agree.

I guess there are varying degrees in how far you believe men are privileged. I always roll my eyes a bit when some women make out that men breeze through life. The only people I've seen breeze through life are people like my boss's ex wife who has barely worked a day in her life and has now amassed considerable personal wealth from using her considerable beauty to marry very rich men - it's certainly not her brains. But she is undoubtedly one of the privileged elite.

Most men are stuck in the rat race and will work till 65. At the bottom you have men doing the dirtiest jobs, and in the more professional sectors men seem to be more privileged on the whole but are much more likely to make enough money that their wife doesn't have to work full time and can forego the stress of a career job (something which is often frowned upon on here but is no doubt a privilege for women who don't want to work or aren't intellectually gifted - they can still marry a successful man and live a great quality of life in a way which a dimwitted male won't likely ever be able to).

I tend to avoid the word privilege and use advantage instead. The working world for example favours men. It doesn't favour women in the same way but because of societal expectations (patriarchy) it's hard to balance things out. Therefore women end up with lower pensions, lower paid jobs, less financial independence etc.

I wanted to share care of my children with my now exH so that we could both have our careers but he refused to even ask for flexible working because he didn't want to colleagues and management to consider him as less professional than his peers (his words). So I had to take the hit.

That's one example of how men are advantaged. I will also have to work until I'm 67. But I have lost 15 years of career and earning capacity snd have re entered the job market on less than I was on nearly 20 years ago. Because patriarch notions of it being more acceptable for a woman to take a career hit than a man.

That's one example. Saying that patriarchy is problematic also doesn't mean I hate men, it means that the system in which we exist offers, generally speaking, more advantages if you are male - but they still come at a cost - for men and women (in terms of health, mental snd physical etc)

Can one of you kind women explain to me what these two quite aggressive men are doing on a woman's forum other than dick waving?

Because this is just an absolutely shameful example of male privilege.

The OP clearly has issues if they feel bullied by the truth and have provided no evidence to support their wild nonsense.

And we have a man talking about the pre WW2 years, who doesn't seem to realise what jobs women do. Like cleaning abattoir clothing, (done that), sorting dirty laundry off of cruise ship, filled with turd (done that) and many, many other dirty jobs. Whilst bringing up a family and wiping their husbands arse.

I've worked all of my life. I am THE wage earner.

@SourAppleChew

What the hell makes you think women want their partner to do everything for them? Outrageous.

It's the fact that they actually have the choice!

A choice which a fair few women take once the kids are at school and the husband is earning a nice wedge. You see them on the SAHM threads defending 'their choice' to those that believe women have a moral obligation to work.

Who has this imaginary choice of yours?

I certainly don't. Never have.

MALE PRIVILEGE

@SourAppleChew

In this context that isn't what male privilege means though.

No, the choice to give up working and sacrifice some freedom instead (often not very much when finances are shared) is a female privilege. It's a relevant point when people start going on about how easy life is for men (it isn't, because suicide is the main cause of male death).

I think your example actually proves the opposite of what you think it does. Often within a household the woman will be the one to drop hours/stay at home with the children as the man earns more (hint, it's not always just because he works harder than women do). Sometimes it's a choice, other times it's a burden placed on women due to societal pressures, balancing the cost of childcare which is often seen as a woman's expense for some reason, and because the man's super important job means he can't possibly help around the home. This isn't true in every instance of course, but to say that because a few women (not the majority by any stretch) have the option to choose what to do because they can be financially supported by their husbands (who also benefit from the arrangement btw) is a beacon of female privilege, although I hate the phrase...educate yourself.

Also privilege isn't about life being easy, but it's that many elements aren't made harder due to your biological sex. Again, if you think about it I am sure you can imagine a few examples of why that's the case. I also agree that society does disadvantage men in many ways, and that there should be support as its a tragedy that so many men are lost to suicide; but that doesn't negate the point that male privilege exists.

and not worry about what's between their legs

This is what you say if you have never had to think about the consequences of possessing female biology.

Imagine saying it on a site called 'mumsnet'.

OP you have absolutely NO idea what it is to be a woman. You haven't got a clue how to put anyone before yourself.

As for Sour, I'm surprised anyone married you at all.

tried to put forward something intelligent, and I haven't received a single kind word.

Female people do not owe anyone the service of kindness or indulgence or agreement on the grounds that they're female and this is their job. You've actually been responded to more patiently than the female posters here would speak with another female: go and read AIBU. Female people don't indulge each other much at all, their expectations of each other are generally very high indeed.

Just a load of crap and abuse.

No one has abused you. No one has been as rude to you as you are freely being yourself on this thread. If you're seeing women trying to explain their issues and needs and feelings to you as 'crap' then really I think you're probably explaining how subhuman you really perceive women as. You don't seem to believe they are entitled to independence of thought or opinion or need that is different to what you tell them.

Even if it were possible to do some kind of Vulcan mindmeld on the door to assess if this particular male person is a sincere TW who is a good person who will not use their special access to the detriment of the women and children present -

Even if there was any way at all to gatekeep which male people come in and which don't -

Women who cannot be in mixed sex spaces will still be forced out by their presence.

That's not inclusion. Those women are probably lovely and harmless too. Those women also have lives, and needs and diversities.

Mixed sex spaces does not work for all women. Unfortunately this requires recognising that TW and W are not one and the same thing with identical needs that can always be met as one group.

I tend to avoid the word privilege and use advantage instead. The working world for example favours men. It doesn't favour women in the same way but because of societal expectations (patriarchy) it's hard to balance things out. Therefore women end up with lower pensions, lower paid jobs, less financial independence etc.

I wanted to share care of my children with my now exH so that we could both have our careers but he refused to even ask for flexible working because he didn't want to colleagues and management to consider him as less professional than his peers (his words). So I had to take the hit.

That's one example of how men are advantaged. I will also have to work until I'm 67. But I have lost 15 years of career and earning capacity snd have re entered the job market on less than I was on nearly 20 years ago. Because patriarch notions of it being more acceptable for a woman to take a career hit than a man.

That's one example. Saying that patriarchy is problematic also doesn't mean I hate men, it means that the system in which we exist offers, generally speaking, more advantages if you are male - but they still come at a cost - for men and women (in terms of health, mental snd physical etc)

I agree with much of this.

I don't think that it can be authoritatively put in a box as many seem to try, because every situation is different. Many posters on here seem to see a job as a barometer of success but most men I know see it as a means to pay the bills.

If a couple both work and share finances, the one who has the highest paid job (often the one who carried on working) usually has the more stressful day, as pay is usually based on responsibility. The flipside obviously is that they have more personal security but you can't have your cake and eat it. If you work you don't get to see your kids growing up.

@SourAppleChew

In this context that isn't what male privilege means though.

No, the choice to give up working and sacrifice some freedom instead (often not very much when finances are shared) is a female privilege. It's a relevant point when people start going on about how easy life is for men (it isn't, because suicide is the main cause of male death).

Where on this thread has anyone stated that men have an easy life? Or breeze through anything? Nobody believes that? We're very aware of make mental health issues. We have husbands, sons, brothers and fathers.

But you've essentially hijack a thread where women are talking about protecting and safeguarding their protected spaces by shouting "but what about the men"?

If you're concerned about make mental health, and how unfairly you think men are treated, then start your own thread. As stated, the patriarchal structures that exist in our society do favour men over women, but that comes with an unpleasant price tag. Of course tjat needs addressing. Feel free to campaign for the better mental health services for men. Help break down societies gendered expectations that fuel toxic masculinity but don't lecture women with your tedious whataboutery.

No, the choice to give up working and sacrifice some freedom instead (often not very much when finances are shared) is a female privilege.

Strictly speaking there is nothing to stop men also giving up work. However, men seem less willing to fight to change societal perceptions of how men and women should behave.

I would die to protect a woman.

It's a shame you won't listen to her though. Or consider her individual needs, her privacy, her dignity, her history and how being born biologically female may have affected her. Tbh she would probably appreciate that a whole lot more.

For what its worth, I'm never going to stand by while anyone harms or intimidates a TW, or a TM or a NB person, or anyone else. It's not that i don't understand your needs and your feelings, and it is not that I don't care about them. It is just that women have needs too, they are incompatible, and women just co operating and shutting up and suffering to benefit TW is not a solution. It's nothing good.

The answer is third spaces.

If a couple both work and share finances, the one who has the highest paid job (often the one who carried on working) usually has the more stressful day, as pay is usually based on responsibility. The flipside obviously is that they have more personal security but you can't have your cake and eat it. If you work you don't get to see your kids growing up.

Define 'stressful job'. I'd say you've got quite a dated attitude which is Mired in sexist stereotypes.

How depressingly predictable from the OP: aggressive from the outset, women must do and act as I tell them, deny, deny, deny any consequences for women, provide no coherent argument or evidence, NATWALT, throw out insults, be disingenuous, frame disagreement as abuse and for a final flourish abusive name calling and insults.

Posting in good faith, my arse.

I would die to protect a woman.

Bit weird. If you are going to die to protect a random stranger, why not also men?

Feminists aren't asking anyone to die for them - just for protection of the rights and policies that enable equal participation for women in society.

Is the OP really here moaning that women aren’t being nice to them?? It never ceases to amaze me how much those born male continue to expect that women will just rush in to Pat their head & say “there there” the moment they say they’re unhappy

I’m extremely unhappy that women’s single sex spaces are being erased but women’s unhappiness doesn’t seem to matter….

@SourAppleChew

Ok, last post about the patriarchy as I'm seriously derailing now.

Read the below collection of quotes which another poster collected from the SAHM thread and ask yourself how many of them could've been written by a man.

My sil is 44, rich and has NEVER had a job, lucky her! She has no trouble filling her day and has a great life.

Dp earns the money then gives it to me. Why would I feel oppressed?

I haven't worked in 8 years and bloody love it! I got to go shopping without ds today and have a long lunch with a friend. Going to the gym now.

My friend is married to the son of a billionaire and sometimes I have to block her on social media because her life is one long holiday.

I dont work, I was able to be a sahm with my sons, both in 30s now. I lunch, dressmake, walk my dogs for miles, spend time with friends and family etc....
I also volunteer for a small homeless charity, something I am so passionate about, being literally close to home.
I feel totally fulfilled!

My DSis married a very high earner and has never worked a day in her life.

My DH works 80 hours a week for a signficant amount of money, which allows me to be a SAHM and indulge myself, allow me to do all of my volunteering and my hobbies.

I work just a few hours a week in a job I love doing, I don’t have to work for financial reasons. I’ve accidentally ended up with a really high earning DH. I enjoy having lots of time to myself, I have hobbies, an amazing spa membership and an extremely fortunate to have some really good friends whom I’m able to see nearly every week.

My SIL is lucky enough to not have to work due to DB’s income. She has nice things, goes out for lots of lunches.

I'm a SAHM who has teenage children and is fortunate to be married to a high earner so I haven't needed to work since having kids. We do have a lifestyle that most people would find impressive.

I choose not to work. DH works really long shifts and odd hours so can be out of the house either days or nights, with each week being different. When the kids are grown I'll go and get some post-sahm work. Maybe in a shop, factory, cafe or something similar.

The funniest post was Monday morning when she started by posting “it’s going to be a long week, hoping the nanny isn’t late” followed by “anyone know a place I can get nails done, not happy with the place I’ve been going as I think they overcharge and wanting a day to pamper myself a bit.”

I feel lucky that I don't need to work. I am not getting any benefits because dh earns enough.

I'm lucky in that I didn't have to carry on working.

I am lucky enough not to work and stay at home with my son, as DH is a high earner. I feel extremely grateful for this every day, and try very hard not to take it for granted.

Start a new thread about it. This is not the place. But not here. You're derailing. You know you're derailjng but yet you continue.

Oh look. Your male privilege is showing!