Shameful, incoherent, poorly referenced, completely biased piece of 'journalism' from the Guardian

[JustcameoutGC]

So, we are all right wing anti-trans nuts.
The WiSpa incident didn't happen
Or if it did then that would be no problem
(make up your mind people)
The violence was all directed towards the TRAs.

If you needed an excuse to cancel your subscription, this would be it.

Dear Lord, really? That's what you've got?

It’s quite easy to have a clear idea about what happened when you believe the people who were there who have described what happened. You don’t need to be form of “invesigator” and to talk in such terms is goady as fuck.

There’s no legal case because it was legal for the male to be naked in the female space with a semi erect penis.

except, there is NO evidence that the 'incident' actually did happen

Maybe there wasn’t a naked male in a female sauna. We don’t know. What we do know is that if someone goes to the front desk of that sauna and says that there is a naked man in the sauna, the staff shrug and say they can’t do anything about it. They won’t even look and see if it’s true.

@andyoldlabour

As others have already said, Cologne 2015 was a watershed moment for me with regard to the Guardian and Independent. These two publications are no longer trustworthy sources of "news".

For me it was when they reported on Gary Marie's hunger strike because he wanted to be in a women's prison and was being denied his hair straighteners, but completely neglecting to mention that the reason that he was in prison in the first place was because he was spying on teenage girls and breaking into their houses and filming himself wearing their underwear.

They added it afterwards, but the initial article didn't say anything about his crimes.

I was absolutely horrified.

@CardinalLolzy

Dear Lord, really? That's what you've got?

That really is all they've got.

Everyone can see it.

'Wi Spa represented a nightmare scenario' - they got the sum-up at the end about right.

Well @Helleofabore is confident they have a very clear picture of what happened at that spa. So I've got to assume that they are involved in an investigation of it considering their level of knowledge. Most police/investigators know already that they shouldn't really discuss cases publicly so I was just reminding @Helleofabore in case they had forgotten about that, because they seem really invested in proving the case and this could jeopardize all their hard work.

Nice try at deflection. I don't think that I can be bothered to repeat myself on the whole 'police investigation' point.

I have been quite clear in my beliefs that it happened as reported in all three instances. Because I am yet to be convinced by all the very ambiguous arguments for it being 'faked'. Sure, it may not have happened quite as each report has detailed, but you have yet to present any credible evidence, or argument as to how it has been faked or why.

A point that I have repeated across a few threads and posts now is that it actually doesn't influence the answer to the question. At all. It really doesn't matter if you 'drop your towel' in the changing room if you are female in a female changing room. Or if you are a naked female in a naked spa room. It certainly does not matter if another country has a custom of family being naked showering (how do they all fit in one shower???) or at the beach. To me, to keep raising these as examples is dishonest as it has no bearing on this situation. And nor does whether it happened quite the way it was reported in all three instances.

So, you don't owe a person on the internet an answer, but your lack of an answer is revealing.

Just own what you, personally, seem to advocating because of your lack of an answer.

For the first scenarios I don't believe it is inherently problematic, lots of countries have different attitudes to nudity, one ex gf used to live in Denmark and said nudity by all family members was commonplace when showering after swimming and on lots of the beaches

That's funny, because a male, Ibi Pippi, identified as a woman under the new self ID law to access female changing rooms and Danish women and Danish gyms didn't seem too impressed despite all this lack of prudish modesty you mention, which resulted in Ibi Pippi suing the gym for denying access.

Maybe there wasn’t a naked male in a female sauna. We don’t know. What we do know is that if someone goes to the front desk of that sauna and says that there is a naked man in the sauna, the staff shrug and say they can’t do anything about it. They won’t even look and see if it’s true.

Really good point!

@Ereshkigalangcleg

For the first scenarios I don't believe it is inherently problematic, lots of countries have different attitudes to nudity, one ex gf used to live in Denmark and said nudity by all family members was commonplace when showering after swimming and on lots of the beaches

That's funny, because a male, Ibi Pippi, identified as a woman under the new self ID law to access female changing rooms and Danish women and Danish gyms didn't seem too impressed despite all this lack of prudish modesty you mention, which resulted in Ibi Pippi suing the gym for denying access.

I think what suggestion is actually missing, and we have had this from other posters, the 'nudity' they are talking about happens in family situations.

To discuss it in this context is rather disingenuous.

@happydays2345

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What investigation could we possibly be endangering given that, apparently this didn’t happen?

Who is being investigated and why?

Arguing out of one side of the mouth that any and all public nudity is fine, and to be encouraged, and then suggesting out of the other side that there is some sort of criminal investigation underway doesn’t make the slightest bit of sense.

Come on Sophocles its not supposed to make sense. You know that 😉

God, these threads annoy me so much. The resident trans apologists can't answer simple questions and just deflect.

Do you really think you're fighting the good fight with this? You are literally arguing that naked males both should be allowed into female areas and that it would never happen.

Why not just say what you mean instead of deflecting?
Be explicit, do you think it's OK for transwomen, pre or post-op, to use facilities that are for naked females or not?

@TheWeeDonkey

Come on Sophocles its not supposed to make sense. You know that 😉

I know, I know, you’d think I’d have learned by now!

But I can’t help it, I do still keep trying to make sense out of how this can be

• not a problem at all, because nudity is fine, women are prudes, and young girls need to be educated not to stare at Unexpected Spa Penis

AND

• completely made up by homophobic (?) Christians

AND

• something the police would want to investigate

All at the same time!

I started reading and couldn't be arsed to finish. The conspiracy theories and misinformation in that article aren't even half baked. They're are fully-baked on a par with flat earthers, qanon and the most far fetched 5g covid nonsense. It's a shame that the Guardian has fallen so far.

@Helleofabore

Well *@Helleofabore* is confident they have a very clear picture of what happened at that spa. So I've got to assume that they are involved in an investigation of it considering their level of knowledge. Most police/investigators know already that they shouldn't really discuss cases publicly so I was just reminding *@Helleofabore* in case they had forgotten about that, because they seem really invested in proving the case and this could jeopardize all their hard work.

Nice try at deflection. I don't think that I can be bothered to repeat myself on the whole 'police investigation' point.

I have been quite clear in my beliefs that it happened as reported in all three instances. Because I am yet to be convinced by all the very ambiguous arguments for it being 'faked'. Sure, it may not have happened quite as each report has detailed, but you have yet to present any credible evidence, or argument as to how it has been faked or why.

A point that I have repeated across a few threads and posts now is that it actually doesn't influence the answer to the question. At all. It really doesn't matter if you 'drop your towel' in the changing room if you are female in a female changing room. Or if you are a naked female in a naked spa room. It certainly does not matter if another country has a custom of family being naked showering (how do they all fit in one shower???) or at the beach. To me, to keep raising these as examples is dishonest as it has no bearing on this situation. And nor does whether it happened quite the way it was reported in all three instances.

So, you don't owe a person on the internet an answer, but your lack of an answer is revealing.

Just own what you, personally, seem to advocating because of your lack of an answer.

I don't see how it can be dishonest for me to acknowledge I can not comment on a scenario I have no evidence of. Everything is speculation at that point. Given I understand that, I have instead given specific information about possible scenarios I consider problematic, and those that I do not consider problematic.

That is my honest take on it and I refuse to speculate on something I don't have strong enough information about.

I don't see how attitudes to public nudity are irrelevant either - there are many places and many times throughout history, recent and not so recent, where nudity of all present in places is commonplace - from elderly people to babies and everyone in between. This spa had a policy, which they had to according to state law, of allowing transgender women access, so presumably they would be naked if other people are naked. Was that not clear to all people using the spa?

I don't personally assume the presence of dick and balls means offense, or that their owner is going to be abusive, or expose with the intent of intimidating. But of course I would have a problem if they are. If a spa is facing concerns on this perhaps they could look at safeguarding through having a member of staff present. That way they would act both a deterrent for improper activity and a witness for any claims.

Be careful of what you're posting if so as you wouldn't want the case to be compromised.

The US doesn't have prejudice rules in the same way as the UK. Very hard to compromise a case. Assuming there is one, which as far as I'm aware there isn't.

It sure is a conundrum Sophocles up there with people not believing that the policies they've been lobbying for are being enacted and that the things that people against it said would happen are happening.

Ok. I understand.

You don't have a problem with a male exposing their penis in an area where females and children are naked in a single sex facility.

You don't have a problem with a male with an exposed penis getting into a spa with naked children.

And people who enter a Korean Spa which caters for families in California should have no expectation of not encountering a penis in the female only naked section.

Have I misunderstood?

Idon't personally assume the presence of dick and balls means offense, or that their owner is going to be abusive, or expose with the intent of intimidating

But it doesn’t matter what the intent is, because focusing solely on that completely discounts the reality of what impacted women feel, as if it doesn’t exist at all. This absolutely will be an issue to many, if not most women, and I personally have no interest in attempting to shame or coerce women out of our boundaries in relation to male nudity.

Was that not clear to all people using the spa?

Well clearly not

Arguing out of one side of the mouth that any and all public nudity is fine, and to be encouraged, and then suggesting out of the other side that there is some sort of criminal investigation underway doesn’t make the slightest bit of sense.

It doesn't.

So fucked up that we're at a place where people rush to defend and dismiss a male stranger exposing their cock and balls to women and girls. If you don't see anything wrong with that, then I don't know what to say.

Idon't personally assume the presence of dick and balls means offense, or that their owner is going to be abusive, or expose with the intent of intimidating
So if intent is what matters to you, do you also believe a defense along the lines of, 'I didn't mean any harm' or 'I didn't mean to hurt her' or 'I thought she wanted it' is valid?