Shameful, incoherent, poorly referenced, completely biased piece of 'journalism' from the Guardian

[JustcameoutGC]

So, we are all right wing anti-trans nuts.
The WiSpa incident didn't happen
Or if it did then that would be no problem
(make up your mind people)
The violence was all directed towards the TRAs.

If you needed an excuse to cancel your subscription, this would be it.

If that has occurred and could be attributed to the impact of GRA I would quite happily re-evaluate my stance on how these issues are handled, because I would see that the situation of overall harm might weigh in the balance differentl

If male sex offenders in womens prisons doesn't make you stop and think then I doubt anything will. Be honest

If male sex offenders in womens prisons doesn't make you stop and think then I doubt anything will.

This person has shown that they think male feelings are more important than the feelings, privacy, dignity, comfort and safety of women and girls. They're by no means unusual in that.

So it didn't happen but it might have happened as trans women must be allowed into women's facilities in the state of California and it's no big deal and if it WERE to happen, women should just STFU and not look, bigots.

Gaslighting, a masterclass.

This person has shown that they think male feelings are more important than the feelings, privacy, dignity, comfort and safety of women and girls.

And they're an illustration of the problem. They may say

I believe when rights are extended they are used with sensitivity and care by the people who benefit from them who do not want to distress others - after all doing this would jeopardise the rights that were gained.

But their very posts are a counter-example. They're willing to jeopardise these rights by blatantly illustrating how little they care about women. They don't have the self-awareness to realise how much they're hurting their own cause by showing how much women's boundaries don't matter.

If they don't have that much self-awareness on a forum, why would a horny male given the chance to enter a nude "female" spa?

I find it most odd that they believe in self ID but only with restrictions which mens they agree with gate keeping too ergo it's not self ID and they will be branded a transphobe anyway.

As I pointed out earlier, which you didn't bother to acknowledge, Suggestionsplease, a male who had made the legal declaration to self ID as a woman took some Danish gyms to court because they wouldn't let him change with the women and instead gave him an alternative place to change. I wonder why, when you claim that some random acquaintance of yours says it's all free and easy there and everyone is perfectly happy getting their kit off in front of the opposite sex?

So you answer that first. Why was that?

But their very posts are a counter-example. They're willing to jeopardise these rights by blatantly illustrating how little they care about women. They don't have the self-awareness to realise how much they're hurting their own cause by showing how much women's boundaries don't matter.

I don't think so. I think the point is to highlight that women's boundaries don't matter. That we're not important, and what males demand is always going to be prioritised. It's quite common for people to relish doing that, including on Mumsnet.

I don't even know why posters are still expecting @suggestionsplease1 to actually interact and respond to questions asked.

They're only here to assert that women's security, needs and wants come second to men's feelings. The fact thata woman saying no is not worthy of @suggestionsplease1 consideration tells us exactly what @suggestionsplease1 thinks of women.

I agree. Mine was more a rhetorical question.

Gaslighting, a masterclass.

Indeed

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I agree. Mine was more a rhetorical question.

Well yes, its like crime isn't it?

If men can identify as women and registed themselves as women, how can you record that less women are using services who's facilities are mixed sex?

It makes a mockery or the whole thing, this was the end goal, this is what they wanted and then they gaslight us into believing this never happens.

Tell me how this is not an MRA movement?

I completely agree that it is.

If people are acting in bad faith that can, and has been, tackled.
What, like TW taking women's spaces in the Olympics?
TW - or perhaps 'TW' who are just using the designation to get what they want - in women's prisons?

The whole point of safeguarding, @suggestionsplease1, is PREVENT these things from happening, not slam the stable door after the damage has been done.

We have safeguarding because we KNOW that if a loophole exists, sexual predators will exploit it. This is why, at the school where I work (and I use this same example over and over again) even a sweet, frail old lady, well known in her local community, with a daughter who works in the school and a DGC attending the school, has to go through a safeguarding check before she can sit in a corridor (where anyone might walk by at any moment) and hear a child read.

But apparently it's utterly fine to have legislation that allows a bloke to say 'I am a woman' and saunter in a nude female spa and wave his dick around? Can you suggest how we might safeguard against ill-intent in that situation? Or is just that men are more important than women, and making a few men feel sad and unvalidated is much, much worse than opening a loophole through which a sexual predator can shoot like a ferret up a trouser leg, so he can waggle his willy at females who have not consented to see it?

I'm not engaging with Suggestion again as it is a one way conversation.

Now, without answering any questions posed to them, we are yet again supposed to provide them with evidence about Ireland. Let me say this again:

THIS IS NOT A LIBRARY. If you have an actual valid point to make, please do your own research to make the point. In doing so, please take in to account that the delusional males running the show think TWAW except when choosing who to hide the sausage with.

We don't need to micro focus on Ireland. There is evidence from the entire world!

Stop bullying women little man.

@TheWeeDonkey

I don't even know why posters are still expecting **@suggestionsplease1** to actually interact and respond to questions asked.

They're only here to assert that women's security, needs and wants come second to men's feelings. The fact thata woman saying no is not worthy of @suggestionsplease1 consideration tells us exactly what @suggestionsplease1 thinks of women.

I agree but I still think it’s valid to show what never gets an answer.

I think it makes the point crystal clear.

If you're presently lacking in evidence, and acknowledging that self-exclusion from facilities amongst women is a possible consideration, have you lobbied city councils in Ireland to share anonymised stats on the use of their facilities according to sex/ ethnicity/ religion/ age etc? (if they happen to record all the above for their users.) That way you could demonstrate if a decline has occurred in use amongst certain demographics since the Gender Recognition Act came in in 2015.

Have a little think.
What would any stats recorded as "sex: female" indicate?
Do you think city councils collect data on biological sex?

Guardian apology when?

Someone said on the other thread about this that they have complained to IPSO. How many would it take I wonder?

There has to be some sort of penalty to employing an anti-journalist like Levin. In this area, at least, he is clearly not reliable. His religious beliefs are overriding any inclination he might have to write accurately, or do journalism to find out what the truth is.

They need to make sure he isn't allowed to work on news pieces on this topic, and send him to work on something he doesn't have such fixed ideas about.

I don’t know if @suggestionsplease1 @sailmeaway, @Gottalife or @pheebumbalatti are still active users, but as you all thought that this incident was made up, I’d be interested in hearing what, if any, difference it makes to your take on this now that it seems that it was in fact true, and the person involved is a serial sex offender?

@Sophoclesthefox

I don’t know if *@suggestionsplease1* *@sailmeaway, @Gottalife or @pheebumbalatti* are still active users, but as you all thought that this incident was made up, I’d be interested in hearing what, if any, difference it makes to your take on this now that it seems that it was in fact true, and the person involved is a serial sex offender?

You can read all my posts on this thread, and I stand by every one of them.

I maintained a stance that nobody was in a position to judge the facts of that matter and I outlined that I thought a thorough police investigation was a good way forward to either establish if there had been a hoax, or to prosecute in the event that a crime had taken place.

Someone said on the other thread about this that they have complained to IPSO. How many would it take I wonder?

The Guardian isn't regulated by IPSO. You need to complain to the readers' editor, Elisabeth Ribbans: [email protected]

So we can only safeguard after the event, suggestions? Not sure that is going to be terribly reassuring for women worried about males in their spaces, tbh.

Fair enough, suggestions.

Do you think this person is genuinely trans and therefore no offence was committed, or do you think that this is a predatory male with a history of sex offending- you were clear upthread that that makes a difference to you with regard to “intent”?

How would the women at the spa know which case applied, and do you see any issues with the focus being solely on the intent of the perpetrator, and not on the women’s perception of what happened?

Be great if you could share your thoughts on that.

@Sophoclesthefox

Fair enough, suggestions.

Do you think this person is genuinely trans and therefore no offence was committed, or do you think that this is a predatory male with a history of sex offending- you were clear upthread that that makes a difference to you with regard to “intent”?

How would the women at the spa know which case applied, and do you see any issues with the focus being solely on the intent of the perpetrator, and not on the women’s perception of what happened?

Be great if you could share your thoughts on that.

Well I guess we still don't know the outcome of this case yet, but I think most people would find it problematic that a registered sex offender with previous convictions for indecent exposure can access spaces where nudity is likely.

So I would expect something like a 'Sexual Harm Prevention Order' might be appropriate for those individuals with previous convictions like these...I know in the UK that can specify things like no unsupervised contact with children, it would seem right that in circumstances like this it would mean the individual was not allowed to access these spaces, could be subject to recall to prison or further prosecution if they did.

If something like that was in place it doesn't matter if the individual is trans, male or female , it is their prior sexual offences that are relevant.

I think this is clearly a disturbing situation but what does the overall picture say - have sex attacks or offences like exposure in spaces like this increased over the years that Los Angeles has permitted trans people to use facilities that match their declared gender? Have they increased in other countries that have allowed this over the last few years? I really don't know that they have. I think the overall evidence should help inform policy and safeguarding practices.

Intention and perception are an interesting dance. You could have someone intend harm and yet no perception of it is felt, and you could have someone intend no harm and yet perception of great harm is felt, and every shade in between. I don't envy any judge that has to make a call on those areas.

We don't live in a completely risk-free world; we can't pre-empt every scenario without causing other related harms and compromising other values that are important. eg. Increasing the policing of sexes that use bathrooms can mean butch lesbians are victimised as they use the 'right' facilities for them. It's about finding the right balance and obviously everyone has different ideas on that.