Shameful, incoherent, poorly referenced, completely biased piece of 'journalism' from the Guardian

[JustcameoutGC]

So, we are all right wing anti-trans nuts.
The WiSpa incident didn't happen
Or if it did then that would be no problem
(make up your mind people)
The violence was all directed towards the TRAs.

If you needed an excuse to cancel your subscription, this would be it.

@RoyalCorgi

Precious Child made a video - since deleted - admitting to being the person in the spa. Now either they are telling the truth (in which case it happened) or they are lying (but surely trans people don't lie? I thought they were all saints).

So which is it?

You've missed out a 3rd option - that you haven't understood the video properly and there is no admission that they were the person at the spa.

I was able to access the video a couple of mins ago on the thread you started.

[quote MoonlightApple]Well apparently EVERYONE thinks transgender women are women so what do we know

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/29/ioc-praises-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-ahead-of-transgender-athletes-olympic-debut[/quote]
'Oh gosh, it's just all so hand wringingly complicated. Just how much grace do we permit women who feel that women's sports don't just exist for males with certain feelings and who don't want their sports flung open to any male who feels like competing with them? We are in control of these women, we set the boundaries for them, so just how much do we allow them to have? It's soooooo difficult'.......

Whether or not this incident ever happened, it is a fact that under Californian law, any male who self ids as a woman can use the facilities designated for women.

Can anyone defending the position that if there was a TW in the spa they were using it legally (which I don’t dispute) tell me what metamorphosis does a penis go through to become acceptable to expose if it is attached to a TW rather than any other male? Is there any difference? I thought it was generally accepted that adult males do not expose their penis to women and girls. And ‘exposing’ doesn’t have to be threatening. Any males I know would be mortified if they had a wardrobe malfunction and their penis was exposed and if there were children around, potentially worried about being reported . Why do males at the beach wrap a towel around their waists when changing if exposing their penis wasn’t taboo?

When a TW legally uses a facility like the other one in this story, I don’t jump to the conclusion that if they have a penis, that automatically means they were behaving inappropriately. What I want to know is when the legislation was drafted that gave any male who identifies as a woman the right to use that space, how in drafting that law did they rationalise that the societal norm of not exposing penises to women and girls does not apply if the penis is attached to someone who identifies as a woman?

Maybe suggestion can answer the question I asked back on page 2. It seems that your intention here is to continue to dismiss and distract, what did you imply, the ‘anti trans’ feminists. But maybe you will actually cut to the heart of the matter.

The very point that so many posters have sought to avoid answering on these threads. Although, on that link to the other thread, surprisingly to male’s who identify as women assured us it is an absolute ‘no’. But then continued to defend their right to access spaces such as this.

I am not sure how they dealt with the inconsistency of their thinking though. Maybe you will be better able to come up with the solution.

Do you believe that a male has the right to expose their penis to a nine year old girl, or six year old girl from the other complaint, in the female naked section of a spa and to get into a hot tub with that girl?

Two males. Not ‘to males’

Well apparently EVERYONE thinks transgender women are women so what do we know

So why this sub headline?

Appearance at Games continues to* divide opinion*

The recent Yougov poll shows that hardly anyone actually does believe this in terms of sports classification.

@sailmeaway

except, there is NO evidence that the 'incident' actually did happen, Guardian aren't the only ones reporting that. And the woman in Q who complained about the naked man waving his penis around is a crazy, evangelical christian type who appears to have made this all up as a stunt. The police investigated.

Oh give over. Several independent customers were there complaining, not just on this occasion but it has happened before. The staff did not contradict them.

And how can the police "investigate" something which is not a crime in that state?

I was paraphrasing the quote from the IOC official in the article. A pretty one-sided article as it happens.

Moonlight

It was reporting the OIC position. Sean Ingle is one of the brighter lights at the Guardian and often writes about incongruousness of including males in female sports.

I think here, that he is trying to focus on the facts and give balance to a ludicrous statement that seems to be prepositioning for the announcement to come. One that seems to be 'we are not going to make any changes, even though we recognise there are physical advantages, but it is all about the feelz.'

Here is the new thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4309102-IOC-praise-Hubbard

I was paraphrasing the quote from the IOC official in the article. A pretty one-sided article as it happens.

I realised that, sorry! I was just challenging what they said.

Just can't get worked up about something that didn't actually happen.

In your biased opinion.

I trust women when they say they have been sexually assaulted or harassed. I believe her.

so.... no answer to the question.

Because? It didn't happen. I guess that is the way to avoid it then. Didn't happen on the written review, didn't happen to the 6 year old in January 2020 where the spa gave the mother complimentary tickets as compensation, and definitely, definitely didn't happen to the woman who people are denouncing as being a terrible person who, as a devout Christian, is a big old liar!

So... I am not going to bother answering any questions....

@Helleofabore

Maybe suggestion can answer the question I asked back on page 2. It seems that your intention here is to continue to dismiss and distract, what did you imply, the ‘anti trans’ feminists. But maybe you will actually cut to the heart of the matter.

The very point that so many posters have sought to avoid answering on these threads. Although, on that link to the other thread, surprisingly to male’s who identify as women assured us it is an absolute ‘no’. But then continued to defend their right to access spaces such as this.

I am not sure how they dealt with the inconsistency of their thinking though. Maybe you will be better able to come up with the solution.

Do you believe that a male has the right to expose their penis to a nine year old girl, or six year old girl from the other complaint, in the female naked section of a spa and to get into a hot tub with that girl?

In this instance what I believe, or what anyone else believes about appropriateness is irrelevant - if state law permits something and a person is acting in accordance with that law.

To my mind a lot hinges on the word 'expose'. If I go to a swimming pool and accidentally drop my towel I have exposed myself. If I go to a spa where everyone is naked, then I am exposed. Neither of these 2 scenarios are problematic.

If I go to a spa or swimming pool and deliberately and intentionally expose my naked body, angling it in front of others, with the purpose of upsetting other people then clearly that is a different type of exposure.

For the first scenarios I don't believe it is inherently problematic, lots of countries have different attitudes to nudity, one ex gf used to live in Denmark and said nudity by all family members was commonplace when showering after swimming and on lots of the beaches, so presumably there was just a lot of nakedness on display and no attempts to shield children from it.

It’s the perfect ploy by the Guardian and their fellow TRAs. Write such absolute bullshit that it leads to emotional energy being wasted on debating on whether it actually happened or not (of course it fucking happened) rather than the right of women and girls to have a space where a male isn’t walking around with a semi erect penis, or whether they don’t and the male should be able to walk around with a semi erect penis in the presence of naked children.

I’m assuming the Guardian US doesn’t have an editor and they can do their own thing? Otherwise how do these two muppets get to be senior anything and how does this piece of propaganda get passed off as journalism?

The desperate attempts to make everyone think this was a hoax is because people just can't accept that ''terfs'' kinda have a point. We all saw the video. We know this shit is legal. We all saw the reactions from certain TRAs (some with blue ticks) victim blaming 6 year old girls...

I suppose they'll be trying to convince us that women aren't really being locked up in prison with convicted rapists, paedophiles and woman beaters next....

sailmeaway

"Just can't get worked up about something that didn't actually happen."

Well why do you rock up here and waste your time posting about something you are not interested in?

Actually, the question Suggestion is specific to this spa incident.

As you must be aware, because you have commented on it, the male with a semi erect penis sat on the side of the hot tub less than a metre from the young girl in their direct eye line (in fact the scenario was the same for both young girls except the first instance wasn't described as semi-erect). Those males then got into the spa with the girls.

Please do not distract using any other situation.

Do you believe this was acceptable in any way, or not?

If two trans posters can answer this very scenario, I am sure you will have the honesty to as well.

@sailmeaway

Just can't get worked up about something that didn't actually happen.

Really, you are here repeatedly trying to convince people that it didn't happen so I can only think that it does give you a problem.

And if you will not answer the question, ask yourself why it makes you so uncomfortable to do so.

As others have already said, Cologne 2015 was a watershed moment for me with regard to the Guardian and Independent. These two publications are no longer trustworthy sources of "news".

@Helleofabore

Actually, the question Suggestion is specific to this spa incident.

As you must be aware, because you have commented on it, the male with a semi erect penis sat on the side of the hot tub less than a metre from the young girl in their direct eye line (in fact the scenario was the same for both young girls except the first instance wasn't described as semi-erect). Those males then got into the spa with the girls.

Please do not distract using any other situation.

Do you believe this was acceptable in any way, or not?

If two trans posters can answer this very scenario, I am sure you will have the honesty to as well.

I'm not aware of the accuracy of what has been reported, no. And I don't really know how you do? Are you involved with the police investigations? Be careful of what you're posting if so as you wouldn't want the case to be compromised.

Be careful of what you're posting if so as you wouldn't want the case to be compromised.

Do explain how?

@Pretaxanger

Be careful of what you're posting if so as you wouldn't want the case to be compromised.

Do explain how?

Well @Helleofabore is confident they have a very clear picture of what happened at that spa. So I've got to assume that they are involved in an investigation of it considering their level of knowledge. Most police/investigators know already that they shouldn't really discuss cases publicly so I was just reminding @Helleofabore in case they had forgotten about that, because they seem really invested in proving the case and this could jeopardize all their hard work.