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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

8,000 civil servants to be asked to include pronouns in email sign-offs

158 replies

RedRobin20 · 27/07/2021 00:59

The link is below, as is a copy of the text from the full Telegraph article. I never thought that I would be a Telegraph subscriber but their journalism has been much more trusthworthy on this issue (and I wonder therefore whether it is more open on other issues too). This is going too far. In trying to be inclusive of this 1% of the population, nearly 60% are left feeling alienated and some in tears over it, leaving themselves open to sex discrimination.

My eyes have been opened this year. I reflexively was on board with the TRAs as I considered myself a progressive, open minded and liberal person. Then I realised how regressive, hateful and deceptive the TRA lobby is and how heavily it relies on stifling open discussion around safeguarding women, children and gay/lesbians. It wasn’t until reading the intelligent, compassionate and considered discussion on these boards that I had realised the harm being done. I’ve bought and distributed close to 10 of Helen Joyce’s books, and I’m starting conversations about this with family and friends it is becoming clear how many are GC when the discussion is brought to light (instead of just stifling it all as ‘no debate’, conflating the “trans rights” issues with previous civil rights movements and dismissing any GCs as bigots).

Sorry, too tired to type coherently about all this as there is just too much to say and it’s the end of a long day. I just wanted to thank all of you and hope that 2021 is the year that the tide turns on all of this.

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/07/26/scottish-civil-servants-asked-include-pronouns-email-sign-offs/

Thousands of civil servants are to be encouraged to add pronouns to their email sign-offs under plans for a transgender inclusivity drive, despite a backlash from staff.

^The Scottish Government is backing proposals that would ask its 8,000 workers to take a “pronoun pledge” under which they would add terms reflecting their gender identity, such as she/her or he/him, to signatures at the bottom of every work email.

Some people who class themselves as non-binary prefer pronouns such as they/them, while others prefer “non standard” terms such as “zie” or “zir”, which civil servants would be free to use.

Supporters of the plan to “normalise the inclusion” of pronouns have said this would “foster an open culture that is supportive of the LGBTI+ community”.

However, the plan has provoked opposition from civil servants, after an internal survey set up to gauge opinion provoked a row which left some workers in tears.

Almost 60 per cent did not want to add pronouns to their emails, the results showed.

Meanwhile, campaigners raised fears that workers could feel pressurised to comply with the “stupid” and “authoritarian” policy, which has been backed by the Scottish Government but is yet to be rolled out.

Comments written by workers expressing concerns alongside the internal poll were dismissed as “disappointing” by Leslie Evans, Scotland's top civil servant, in a meeting with staff last month.

Documents released on Monday under Freedom of Information legislation show Ms Evans told staff in a Q&A session that “what we write around our name” could be “good and helpful” and said inclusivity policies could be overhauled.

However, Trina Budge, director of the For Women Scotland campaign group, described the pronoun push as “deeply stupid” and accused the Scottish Government of displaying “controlling, illiberal and authoritarian tendencies”.

“A recent poll showed the majority of civil servants were against this move and it is sad, but not surprising, to see Ms Evans disregard this,” she said.

“In forging ahead with this or any associated coerced signing of a pledge, the Scottish Government would, potentially, be discriminating against a protected belief and also inviting sex discrimination.

“It is further evidence that this Government only pretends to consult or openly discuss, and ditches any views which conflict with their predetermined policies.”

A bitter debate has erupted in Scotland about the issue of transgender rights, with Nicola Sturgeon in favour of changing the law to make it far easier for people to legally change their own gender.

Advocates of the changes believe current rules, which require medical reports and for someone to live in their preferred gender for two years, are too onerous and contribute to high levels of mental health problems in the trans community.

Some feminists, including Harry Potter author JK Rowling, strongly oppose the changes, believing they would erode women’s rights and potentially place them at risk in women-only spaces such as prisons and changing rooms.

The survey set up by supporters of the pronoun pledge found that only 17 per cent of more than 3,000 staff at the Government and its quangos who responded said they already used pronouns on email signatures. A quarter said they did not but might in future while 58 per cent said they did not and probably wouldn't.

Many trans and non-binary people introduce themselves with their preferred pronouns, so others know how they wish to be addressed. Some equality groups argue that even for people who are not trans or non-binary, adding pronouns to emails can be an important sign of inclusion towards those who are.

The comments made by some staff left other workers “in tears”, Joe Griffin, a director general in the Scottish Government, said.

He called for “empathy on both sides” of the debate and added: “Nobody in a workplace environment should have the fundamental aspect of their identity challenged.”

It was planned that a follow-up survey would run in September, to measure the impact of the initiative.

A Scottish government spokeswoman said: “It is an individual’s choice whether to include their pronouns in introductions and email signatures.

“The Scottish Government is making progress towards our ambition to be a world leading, diverse employer where people can be themselves at work, with a workforce that reflects the diversity of the people of Scotland.

“As an employer we are committed to a progressive approach to advancing LGBTI equality. We encourage any action that makes people feel included and respected in our organisation.”^

OP posts:
GromblesofGrimbledon · 27/07/2021 01:06

Scotland again.

Or rather the bloody SNP again.

This is disgraceful:

Comments written by workers expressing concerns alongside the internal poll were dismissed as “disappointing” by Leslie Evans, Scotland's top civil servant, in a meeting with staff last month.

Good on you @RedRobin20 for buying so many copies of Helen Joyce's new book and handing them out. There's a "donate a book drive" you might be interested in if you haven't seen it. Sex Matters are trying to get as many copies sent to MPs as possible.

sex-matters.org/take-action/sponsor-a-gift-copy-of-helen-joyces-book-trans/?fbclid=IwAR0N0Ld4g9qL1RQubpepdE9nbkPoyrD3i0q7_A6j8X8I44RVU35HbxmDKRc

PickAChew · 27/07/2021 01:07

Progressive towards what? The magical unicorn award?

I would be tempted to state "if you're talking to me, refer to me as Pickachew, you and your. If you're talking to someone else, use some bloody common sense"

RedRobin20 · 27/07/2021 01:18

@GromblesofGrimbledon Yes, thank you! I heard about sexmatters for the first time here too. I’ve sent one to my local Labour MP who I know from local party meetings and might send one or two anonymous ones to others through Sex Matters (including my CEO). My MP is very pro-TRA but also pro-women so I will write a follow up letter to him about it soon to see if he has read it. He is in a narrowly won seat, and as many voters are single issue voters, I can see him losing his seat over this. I am a card carrying Labour member but at this stage I would vote conservative to change the tide. The TRA v GC discussions are framed as a “culture war” but this should be a cross-political issue that everyone is allowed to form their own considered view on. I suspect I’ll be ejected from the party soon for my views on this anyway… nevermind any other work done for my community, women or children.

It’s such a pity that GCs and TRAs speak across one another and the TRA “allies” allow no room for nuance but plenty for misogyny.

Oh and the SNP, don’t get me started. I despair of my home country!

@PickAChew I couldn’t agree more Grin

OP posts:
Namechangeforthisquestion7 · 27/07/2021 01:37

This makes me cringe. I don't have pronouns in my email signature because I don't have any other personal details in my email signature, only my job title and phone number. How people refer to me is not my concern. I genuinely don't see how everyone sharing pronouns makes anyone feel included. Surely if you don't feel included there is a lot more behind that than someone knowing your pronoun? Maybe I'm just old and out of touch though.

HerewardTheWoke · 27/07/2021 01:39

This won't be an SNP decision (although I don't doubt that civil servants in Scotland will be under heavy pressure to align with the SNP on this issue).

This is a civil service decision, for the permanent civil servants who work for the Scottish Government. The SG Perm Sec (the most senior civil servant in Scotland) will be the person responsible for this. She's incredibly woke and was lamenting last year on Twitter that ScotGov wasn't on Stonewall's top 100 employers list. Doubtless this is her way of getting back in their good books ...

How ridiculous to say that everyone should expect colleagues to validate every part of one's identity. My religion is a fundamental part of my identity - I don't expect my colleagues to share it or validate me, and I'd expect my religious views to get some healthy challenge if I tried to impose them at work.

GromblesofGrimbledon · 27/07/2021 02:02

@HerewardTheWoke

Thanks for that info.

And yes, can you imagine?

Kind regards,
Sharon
She/her
Heterosexual
Labour
Atheist
Vegetarian
Pro-choice
Smoker
Likes long walks on beach and candlelit dinners.

Ffs.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone displaying pronouns in their email signature is either peacocking their ideology or completely clueless. And often a little from column A, a little from column B.

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 27/07/2021 02:08

FFS Scotland again we are so fucked

accused the Scottish Government of displaying “controlling, illiberal and authoritarian tendencies” this with bells on

SheldonesqueTheBstard · 27/07/2021 02:26

Should have known this would be my homeland again.

If people feel the need to display their pronouns then fine.

If people don’t? Then that should be fine as well.

NiceGerbil · 27/07/2021 03:52

This is against the yogakarthi (SP) principles.

No one should be expected to out themselves.

All this shows is that they don't actually have an interest in trans people in general.

All this is about something else...

Datun · 27/07/2021 05:47

This reply has been deleted

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ScreamingMeMe · 27/07/2021 06:50

The Scottish Government is making progress towards our ambition to be a world leading, diverse employer where people can be themselves at work, with a workforce that reflects the diversity of the people of Scotland.

How diverse is Scotland really? That's not to throw shade on Scotland! It just seems to me that they are trying to create diversity rather than reflect it.

Another thing they're trying to force through in the Brave New Kinder Than England World.

AnyOldPrion · 27/07/2021 06:58

I am finding this increasingly bizarre. The more this stuff is pushed, the more it becomes apparent that the majority do not support it and worse, are becoming distressed and/or angry.

Do these people really believe that by pushing harder and harder, they will suddenly persuade people? Can they really be in such a bubble that they can’t see?

With gay rights, the position was the complete opposite. The public was increasingly behind the idea and it was the government that called it wrong with section 28, so perhaps that answers my question. Governments can wholly fail to see what’s happening.

But it’s the blindness to all the rational arguments that continues to astonish, over and over. Literally the only argument I can see in defense against the very obvious problems with self-ID is “there aren’t many men who will use and misuse it, therefore the problem won’t be huge” which is more dismissal of concerns than rational argument.

If they really want to push ahead, they’d be better to attempt some kind of mitigation (e.g. strengthening and clarifying important single sex exemptions) and appeal to the public to give it a try. Bashing on when support is so low, with all the very obvious problems being pointed out in the press, looks close to some kind of extreme irrationality.

But then I guess the idea of introducing it in prisons “because if we can make it work there, that’ll prove our point” is about as irrational as it gets. If they can look at that around the world and still think that’s going to be a success, they must have blinkers on,

MoreRainThanAnyYet · 27/07/2021 07:05

As far as I'm concerned, anyone displaying pronouns in their email signature is either peacocking their ideology or completely clueless.
My full time colleagues all do it because they’ve been told they must. I can’t see that it encourages anything but resentment.

Keepemguessing · 27/07/2021 07:05

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Deliriumoftheendless · 27/07/2021 07:11

Grombles you’ve missed off your star sign info, this making my astrology supporting friends feel very unsafe. They are often mocked for their belief that individuals fall into one of 12 personality types due to when they are born. Literally shaking, do better, educate yourself etc. Please look up Russell Grant and Mystic Meg’s thoughts on this 🙏

FunnyInjury · 27/07/2021 07:20

Exactly Grombles it's an e-mail signature not a bloody tinder profile 🤦‍♀️

Keepemguessing · 27/07/2021 07:24

Why was Datun's post deleted?

I won't be announcing my pronouns at work. I've already sent our head of EDI an email saying so. So far I'm okay but hope I haven't put a target on my back.

Thelikelylass · 27/07/2021 07:29

And harmless Bob in accounts uses the wrong pronouns in a meeting one day, gets hauled in, suspended, gets in the DM, ends up all over twitter despite not using it because Bob is a gardener at the weekend and volunteers for the RNLI. Bob then has to go into hiding because of threats to him and his family.

Thelikelylass · 27/07/2021 07:30

1984 -Sexcrime.

Abhannmor · 27/07/2021 07:39

Such cretinous and evasive language. How does one write a pronoun ' around ' ones name? Would it not make more sense to write it after the name? Better still ; don't bother.

JustcameoutGC · 27/07/2021 07:53

Oh for fuck sake. What next, compulsory pronoun badges?

I hate this identify based politics, it is so utterly self centered, it is the ultimate expression of a life lived on line. It will get us no where. It will not advance us as a species. We are at our best when we work in tribes and pull together to achieve incredible things.

Now we are split up into shes and zirs and zies and other made up bollocks.

Let's see what the zies build. An entire refuge system for battered zies? A rape crisis network for zirs? No, just some bollocks on the end of your e mails. And that is what is now seen as important, that is progress.

guinnessguzzler · 27/07/2021 08:24

I don't think I will ever fully understand this. I have spent my adult life working hard to care what I think of myself and not what others think of me. I have found the better I am at that, the happier I am.

guinnessguzzler · 27/07/2021 08:27

@JustcameoutGC I was typing as you posted, couldn't agree more.

DaisiesandButtercups · 27/07/2021 08:27

Grombles it is not only your astrological placements which you have left off but I am not seeing your MBTI type, enneagram or preferred aesthetic!!!

What kind of person are you that you wouldn’t let everyone know if you are more cottagecore or academia and if academia are you light or dark?

Seriously, I never intend on taking my whole self to work. I value my privacy and my working relationships with my colleagues not to mention the general public who I want to feel comfortable when interacting with me which professionalism, neutrality and not displaying anything about my beliefs, dietary choices, sex life, politics, hobbies all contributes towards in my opinion.

Taking the “whole self” to work will surely only create conflict and strife in the workplace. Yet I suppose that is the purpose of queer theory, to disrupt all those social norms which many people might believe help us live and work together in relative peace as well as those which promote safeguarding, respect, privacy and dignity.

JustcameoutGC · 27/07/2021 08:30

Agree, I think we should have 'leave some of yourself at home', we just don't need to see that' week.