Is it only white middle class women who are GC?

[Ziegfeld]

I recently summoned courage to have “the talk” with an old friend who is gay. I wanted to know his current thoughts on sex based rights, and I thought (as we are old friends) even if we disagreed we could have a civilised conversation about it.

Unfortunately I think he called me transphobic about five minutes into the conversation when I asked, so if we say let’s have self ID, how do we tell whether someone genuinely believes themselves to be a TW or is a man simply announcing he is a woman solely for the purposes of accessing women-only spaces for bad intent. ( His answers to that were “well we need safeguarding” and “there are hardly any TWs, this isn’t a real concern” and “well ideally we should all just have gender neutral changing rooms”)

Some more things were said by both of us which I won’t go into here because I am sure we’ve all heard them before.

But then he said that it’s only white middle class women (like me) who have a problem with self ID and allowing TW access to women’s spaces. He said that working class women and women of colour have no problem at all with it.

I don’t think this is true - look at Allison Bailey for example. But I would be interested to know what other MNers think. Is this a race and class issue? Or is it that white middle class women tend to have more platforms to speak out than other women?

Womens spaces are for women by sex.

"Men by sex are NOT women."

Depends on your point of view, and there are many points of view on that. You'd be fine with Buck Angel coming into a women's toilet with you, would you, though? He was born female. Or perhaps you'd like to tell him that he's a woman to his face.

"Men accommodate your fellow men.

It's not our job."

It's not a job for men to deal with men who don't see themselves as men, either.

"Piss off."

But transwomen aren't going to piss off, are they? They'll continue to use whichever toilet they feel most comfortable in. They generally consider that they have a right to exist and a right to pee and poop safely, too.

You could challenge them, I guess, by saying 'I reckon you're a man - drop your knickers to prove you're a woman!' ... but I don't see that ending well.

After the Jim Crow laws were wiped out out in the USA, white women had to overcome their horror at black women coming into women's toilets. They've also had to get used to lesbians coming into their toilets. I think this is the next step.

Even if we weren’t as obsessed with genitals as the TRAs what would it prove if a transwomen dropped her pants and she had a penis?

Getting really fed up with privileged people who clearly have never been discriminated or hurt or violated just because of their biology telling people who have been discriminated, hurt and violated simply because of thier biology that they should not be bothered by biology

Bleeding Nora I’m so fucking bored of TRA turning up here being racist

Men are not women - it doesn’t depend on your “point of view”. Someone born male can not ever become female! The most they can do is present as a facsimile of a woman

A woman is an adult human female and that includes Black Women, women with disabilities, lesbian women and every other adult human female on the planet

The idea that all of a sudden it’s all sooooo confusing to tell sex is fucking bunkers. It’s not hard to tell sex, that’s how the human race has survived.

Men are not women, how many fucking times do you have to be told NO??????

So what you are saying is that men won't respect women?

Well blow me down like a feather, that's so new and innovative 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

I will scream and shout and call the police at men deliberately intimidating women. Every single time.

I am fine with women in women's spaces.

We said NO. I don't give a shiny shit if you and your fellow travellers decide that makes us racist, transphobic or just plain unkind.

Women aren't obligated to look after transwomen. They can use the men's facilities because they are men.

Dress it up however you will, it's still about women saying no and men saying, "We will if we want to and you can't stop us, ha ha, we don't need your consent and we don't care how you feel about it."

American TRAs who don't have a fucking clue about British history and culture spouting racist shite on British forum for women. How imaginative.

"So what you are saying is that men won't respect women?"

No, they won't. Any man can walk into any women's toilet, at any time. It's easily done by mistake and happens pretty frequently. The worst he'll get is tuts. Legislate against that if you like, and it won't make the slightest bit of difference.

"I will scream and shout and call the police at men deliberately intimidating women. Every single time."

Yes, fine, but how is that relevant? Men can do that anywhere. Why would they go to the trouble of dressing like women and going into a women's toilet to do that? How does that make the slightest sense whatsoever from their point of view?

"I am fine with women in women's spaces."

So long as you can tell the difference, for absolute certain; or - if you can't - you can say 'drop your knickers and prove you're female' - fine. If not ... well, work out a solution that'll work in the real world. But I'd bear in mind, if I were you: force somebody to drop his/her knickers ... and it could be you rather than that person who gets had up for assault.

It’s astonishing how out of touch our TRA visitors are with the definition of trans. Thete is absolutely no need for a man to present as a woman to say that he is one. Indeed saying that a man would need to do that to be a TW is deeply transphobic.

Men merely need to say “I am a woman” if challenged & that’s all that’s required

God the male socialisation & privilege just screams out 🙄

You so very fucking determined that men should be able to stroll into women’s spaces whenever they want with no challenge aren’t you

The answer is still no
No
No
No no no
No
NO

Ahh. Jim Crow again.

And Buck Angel.

Ok. We have been told by transmen that they very much understand that some of them have modified their bodies in a way that will cause women distress in situations where women expect single sex spaces to be upheld. Therefore, many who respect other women would choose not to cause that distress and would not seek access to those spaces.

Your use of transmen is therefore not the ‘gotcha’ you wish.

If only males who identified as women have females the same level of respect. But there you go.

Absolutely @WarOnWoman. Not sure about others but I'm pretty sick of people who wang on about American culture and politics as if it applies globally. It is cultural imperialism writ large, and it's actually pretty gross.

We have isms and phobias in the UK but they can't be explained or dealt with by looking at the American situation. Posters here would be well advised that British women aren't going to stop fighting for our rights because America was racially segregated, and comparing us to the racists who did that makes us feel bad.

And it's a no from me too

No, they won't. Any man can walk into any women's toilet, at any time. It's easily done by mistake and happens pretty frequently. The worst he'll get is tuts. Legislate against that if you like, and it won't make the slightest bit of difference.

To be clear. By ‘men’ are you including all males.

Because are you also stating that if laws are past, all males, including those identifying as women will simply disrespect the laws that prevent them or the new social mores and simply enter female single sex spaces? Is that what you are saying. That trans women will continue regardless and completely disrespect the needs of females?

@Yesindeedydoodey

As a gang rape survivor, believe me when I say to you, I know men like you on sight. Dress how you like, irrelevant. I have yet to meet anyone whose sex isn't obvious.

Men intimidating women and entering women's only spaces is harassment. It is illegal in England.

Good luck to you bullying victims of sexual assault. I'm sure your family are so very proud of who you've become.

So basically male people will do whatever you want and women can't do anything about it, so suck it up.

Absolutely vile way of thinking that you deserve more privilege than women just because you feel sorry for yourself. Morally bankrupt. In every single way.

#nothankyou

@GoodieMoomin

Absolutely *@WarOnWoman*. Not sure about others but I'm pretty sick of people who wang on about American culture and politics as if it applies globally. It is cultural imperialism writ large, and it's actually pretty gross.

We have isms and phobias in the UK but they can't be explained or dealt with by looking at the American situation. Posters here would be well advised that British women aren't going to stop fighting for our rights because America was racially segregated, and comparing us to the racists who did that makes us feel bad.

(Wang is a wonderful word.)

Cultural imperialism ☑️
Appropriation of women ☑️
Racism ☑️

Oh dear, is there some competition tonight for which poster can be the most outrageously goady?

😂😂

There have been some really interesting posts this evening. I realise that the homophobia on the other thread couldn't stand. Maybe the misogyny on this one will, so everyone can see what the issue is.

So it never happens?

Tell us then Yesindeedydoodey

Is it acceptable for a male to expose their penis to a six or nine year old girl less than a metre away in a hot tub in the naked female section of a spa? Is it then acceptable for that male to get into the hot tub with a naked child?

What about if that male’s penis is semi erect?

Is that ok too?

www.google.com/amp/s/www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/4002789/morrisons-sex-attack-girl-fife-transgender-katie-dolatowski/amp/

There are plenty of transwomen who actually respect women, do not use women's spaces and would happily campaign with women for third spaces. We are aware that many men do not care about women's boundaries and happily disregard consent and women saying no.

Stop telling women that men are oppressed because they think they know what it is to be female. Nobody is buying that here.

It has been made pretty clear what we hope to gain - safety, privacy and fairness for women.