Is it only white middle class women who are GC?

[Ziegfeld]

I recently summoned courage to have “the talk” with an old friend who is gay. I wanted to know his current thoughts on sex based rights, and I thought (as we are old friends) even if we disagreed we could have a civilised conversation about it.

Unfortunately I think he called me transphobic about five minutes into the conversation when I asked, so if we say let’s have self ID, how do we tell whether someone genuinely believes themselves to be a TW or is a man simply announcing he is a woman solely for the purposes of accessing women-only spaces for bad intent. ( His answers to that were “well we need safeguarding” and “there are hardly any TWs, this isn’t a real concern” and “well ideally we should all just have gender neutral changing rooms”)

Some more things were said by both of us which I won’t go into here because I am sure we’ve all heard them before.

But then he said that it’s only white middle class women (like me) who have a problem with self ID and allowing TW access to women’s spaces. He said that working class women and women of colour have no problem at all with it.

I don’t think this is true - look at Allison Bailey for example. But I would be interested to know what other MNers think. Is this a race and class issue? Or is it that white middle class women tend to have more platforms to speak out than other women?

www.google.com/amp/s/www.scotsman.com/regions/edinburgh-fife-and-lothians/female-spaces-need-better-protection-after-trans-woman-sex-assault-girl-say-campaigners-140883%3famp

Never happened I'm sure

www.google.com/amp/s/www.wthr.com/amp/article/news/crime/clark-county-man-arrested-sexually-assault-woman-walmart-bathroom/531-f922adb5-ceb3-48f9-9e7b-7f9b0576b912

Never happened of course

www.womenarehuman.com/man-transsexual-arrested-for-assault-on-pregnant-woman-in-restroom/

Never happened right?

www.kxii.com/content/news/Transgender-woman-allegedly-sexually-assaults-teen-in-walmart-505820451.html

www.google.com/amp/s/poptopic.com.au/article/melbourne-girl-11-sexually-abused-in-public-toilet-by-trans-woman/%3famp

I could continue, I really could.

Transwomen offend at the same rate as all men do.

Oh come on guys, one disapproving tuttand the nefarious men will vapourise. A man who felt the need to beat a fox to death with a baseball bat said so.

May I suggest you give your skills at interpreting an overhaul?

Well, actually I have just looked back at the pics I took of your posts and if you think it is my interpretation skills that need an overhaul, you are greatly overstating the coherence and consistency of your posts.

As well the lack of logic and the complete lack of understanding that females use the toilets for much more than ‘just wanting to pee’ and the constant reduction of this is just more distraction. Because it is NOT just about safety it is also about complete privacy to do these tasks without males being present. The type of task that no male will need to contemplate, and some that they are hugely less likely to do if they are in the female toilets. I will not go through them, we have threads and threads discussing them.

But crack on with your unevidenced claims that more females best up males who are using the female toilets with such regularity.

I think some common sense and realism needs urgently to be injected into this (largely non-) issue. We're being asked to think of a predatory sort of man deliberately dressing up in women's clothing, with a wig and some make up too, presumably, for some reason believing that a women's toilet is the best place to target women. Really, think of that: predatory sorts of men are generally the sorts who won't even wear pink tee shirts for the 'shame of it'.

What is it with people pronouncing with absolute certainty absolute nonsense?

Transvestism is the number one paraphilia amongst murderers, rapists and pedophiles. This idea that such predators must be macho men who wouldn't be seen dead in anything feminine flies in the face of all available evidence from history, criminology, psychology and, of course, our courts.

Common sense tells us that male predators go to great length to gain access to victims, training for many years to become doctors, joining the priesthood, volunteering all their time at the Scouts for example.

Common sense tells us that removing safeguards, like the social taboo surrounding males over ten in female toilets or changing rooms, enables predators and gives them more opportunities to offend at less risk of repercussions if their presence is detected prior to committing an offence.

Common sense tells us that we make safeguarding laws imagining the worst of all things happening, thinking of the worst of people taking advantage whenever and wherever they can. If we only ever assumed the best in people we wouldn't have bothered putting any laws into place regarding murder or robberies.

Thankfully as a society we don't pretend that predators exist only in the feverdreams of the overly dramatic or the hateful imaginations of bigots. Decent people continue to support safeguarding laws that govern all of us.

I don't know why but every time I hear about gangs of women beaing up transwomen in toilets I get an image of West Side Story in my mind, that and the fight scene in Anchorman

Many years ago I worked in acute mental health services. The presentation and diagnosis of males and females was very different. We worked with some very disturbed men. Cross dressing was a feature in more than 50% of them
This isn't talked about anymore

I don't call if every TW in the world is lovely.

I still don't want to share female facilities - including but not limited to toilets - with male bodied people.

We said NO. This isn't a negotiation.

*care

Was there ever evidence for hordes of women beating transgender people up?

No. I'm utterly shocked.

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

Was there ever evidence for hordes of women beating transgender people up?

I think OP specifically stated biological women mastubating in toilets 🤮

keepem

Its almost if the poster thought we’d forget about any actual facts and just believe anything they said

I think OP specifically stated biological women mastubating in toilets 🤮

Really?

I have a lovely dh but hes honestly convinced that at any given moment a group of female friends will strip to there undies and have a pillow fight…ive tried to disabuse of that notion but to no avail

Do you think its a similar thing with the OP?

Their undies

My ipad likes to pretend that I’m stupid 😒

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

I think OP specifically stated biological women mastubating in toilets 🤮

Really?

I have a lovely dh but hes honestly convinced that at any given moment a group of female friends will strip to there undies and have a pillow fight…ive tried to disabuse of that notion but to no avail

Do you think its a similar thing with the OP?

It is a strange fascination to have given the lack of evidence.

Since when have biological men needed to make stuff up to undermine women?

Oooohhhhh since they changed the meaning of the word woman! Darn!

No evidence Rufus. But we were told how we had poor interpreting skills.

And we have had two posters this week who seem determined that we accept their point of view that males who identify as women do not ever harm females. It is most peculiar.

Almost like a circling of wagons after a woman was threatened with a pipe bomb, and two uni students have been noted as posting threatening posts has made it too difficult to miss the reports.

Like almost impossible to miss the threats to Joanne Rowling, so posters come to tell us if we believe these threats happened, we are hateful.

Yeah, I think I'm getting my aggressors mixed up. It's all so samey.

"The issue is women's privacy and dignity and desire for a place away from men, however they identify, whatever stage of soi disant "transition" they are at, and regardless of what men think about that."

No, the issue is of people's privacy and dignity for a place away from men. Transwomen have those needs for privacy and dignity too. Also, the need to pee and poop. It gets none of us anywhere to brush away transwomen's needs as though they're nothing or, worse (recalling your 'soi disant'), that they made their beds and must lie in them.

Womens spaces are for women by sex.

Men by sex are NOT women.

Men accommodate your fellow men.

It's not our job.

Piss off.

@Yesindeedydoodey

"The issue is women's privacy and dignity and desire for a place away from men, however they identify, whatever stage of soi disant "transition" they are at, and regardless of what men think about that."

No, the issue is of people's privacy and dignity for a place away from men. Transwomen have those needs for privacy and dignity too. Also, the need to pee and poop. It gets none of us anywhere to brush away transwomen's needs as though they're nothing or, worse (recalling your 'soi disant'), that they made their beds and must lie in them.

The fact remains that transwomen are men and it's up to them to fight for spaces, just like women have had to do. They don't get to fulfil their needs at the expense of women.

I'd happily sign a petition for third spaces.