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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

For any Puregym regulars....

248 replies

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 23/07/2021 13:20

They've stated on Twitter that their communal changing rooms are NOT single-sex and that any woman who wants to be sure of not changing with men should use the gender-neutral toilets. So that's nice.

Thread here: twitter.com/Albawitch_xx/status/1418506009815945216?s=20

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
irresistibleoverwhelm · 24/07/2021 22:03

I was thinking a lot last night about the poster on this thread, and NiceGerbil’s thread on Alison Phipps, which have kind of got merged in my mind, as they both seem to be doing the same kind of thing. In order to make any of this work, they have to reverse the dynamic of oppression between men and women so that they’re arguing that women are oppressing men. So male-bodied people’s fears are much more serious than women’s fears, and women’s refusal to accept this is a kind of oppression.

I do think there’s a denseness to this as well as wilful maliciousness, because it’s rooted in the fact that women’s fears and feelings are regarded as just not really there - a woman articulating them is the focus of rage, because it’s just inconceivable that women really have feelings like real people. They must be making them up, or overdoing it, because they aren’t perceived as there in the first place. Without knowing any of us, a poster can plop in and confidently assert that their trans women friends have faced 10x more misery than any of us ever have. Really? Sure about that?

Meanwhile, children might not as well exist at all.

It’s all very Greek and syllogistic:

Trans women have valid fears.
You are snowflakes.
Your daughters should know not to stare at other people’s genitals in the gym (cf Laurie Penny on the WiSpa incident).

Similarly, the Laurie Penny tweet where she says that pre-pubescent girls should know not to stare at other people’s genitals in the gym because it’s rude, is such astonishing DARVO. I do think - hope - in a few years some of the people making statements like this will look back and be ashamed of some of this stuff. The idea that trans women are so much more vulnerable than everyone else that 9-year-old girls are oppressing and victimising them by not averting their eyes fast enough when confronted with a bare cock, is some of the most egregious stuff I’ve ever seen.

How anyone manages to claim that male-bodied adults are victims of the inappropriate gazes of 9-year-old girls, and still thinks they are on “the right side of history” is beyond me. The cognitive dissonance is astounding! I think they are pretending to themselves we can’t see it. We can though, and won’t forget.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 24/07/2021 22:12

So have Puregym really told women that if they prefer not to undress in front of male flashers, they need to use the toilet to undress in? And they think that's a marketing strategy?
Still - it lets women know clearly which companies make women's safety a priority - and it's evidently not them.

NiceGerbil · 24/07/2021 22:21

Yes- look at their tweets and replies section on Twitter.

They first said there was a separate secure gender neutral area that individual women could use if they wished.

Someone said you mean the disabled bog.

And they said yes.

So an up yours to those who need an accessible toilet as well.

I would have expected to see a head honcho stepping in by now because it's spiralled all over the place. And it's a shitshow.

But at least earlier- no. Which is confusing. They're a business. Women are 50% of the population.

They said yep males come in if that's where they feel more comfy (didn't mention trans, just everyone can go where comfy), just need to tick your preference when you sign up.

Then just said it again and again.

Then said women could change in the bog if they didn't like it, and tried to word it like it was a separate lovely changing area. Which got spotted immediately!

NiceGerbil · 24/07/2021 22:25

@SeggsMatters

I would say that my pure gym has both a accessible toilet and also separate accessible shower facilities with changing area. As a third space away from male or female changing.

I don't know if that's the case for all. But mine has.

That's cool shouldn't it be kept free for people who need accessible facilities though?

What's your thoughts on despite women being 50% of the population and massively more than trans people, it's the women who are advised to use the toilet if they don't want to risk a male person / people coming in to the communal women's changing?

That would work for everyone surely.

NiceGerbil · 24/07/2021 22:40

'The tweeter is asking women if they want their husbands or boyfriends to shower next to a pre-op TW. The suggestion is not that the TW would be in danger, the question is how would the wives and girlfriends feel'

Yes very strange.

This was an early argument for using facilities by gender but it got dropped as it was just...???!!!

Why pre op? I don't get why that's specified.

Anyway. So many issues.

If a man is straight then he's not going to fancy another male is he.
And the assumptions are... Very male and a certain type of male at that.
And very general because how would any woman feel about her male partner being in that situation...

Assumptions- in general men are

Unfaithful
With strangers
They see bogs/ communal changing etc as venues for sex

A straight man would be sexually attracted to a naked male in the shower with them... If the male was trans... How would they even know? I mean. What? So a straight man is with another male in the shower and they're both naked and... Baffled TBH.

Plenty of bisexual men around.
They are also capable of being faithful. Or not inclined to have sex with random males in bogs communal changing etc. And if they're not faithful then there's plenty of men in there.

It's... Bizarre.

It's always says that feminists 'hate men' but it's not us who think they're well. Alley cats.

SeggsMatters · 24/07/2021 22:41

@NiceGerbil

I agree.

I want single sex changing rooms. Women shouldn't have to move into a toilet or anywhere at all.

Would just pointing out the facilities in my gym seeing as that's relevant here. There is a third option in mine.

NiceGerbil · 24/07/2021 22:44

This was the original it was one person.

That argument didn't propagate as it's based on a whole lot of strange assumptions.

www.huffpost.com/entry/this-trans-woman-asks-you-really-want-me-in-the-same-bathroom-as-your-husband_n_563b997fe4b0411d3070003a

NiceGerbil · 24/07/2021 22:47

Gotcha seggs.

The gym couldn't suggest that for trans people who didn't want to use the facilities for their sex because

Massive pile on

But mainly because

This has been their policy... Since when? How long have puregyms worked on pick which changing you fancy and that's that.

Now it's had so much attention I imagine they may well get a load of new applications who tick woman... I mean obviously.

FloralBunting · 24/07/2021 22:48

Yes, but the accessible facility is there for people with a disability that require accessible facilities, surely? All that means is that men have their pick of options and women and disabled people are losing out. It's not acceptable to use the accessible facility if you don't require it, and it's completely unacceptable for Puregym to disrespect both their female and disabled clients by presenting it as an option if men are using the female facilities.

NiceGerbil · 24/07/2021 22:59

Ah.

Puregym got a lot of negative press in 2018 after a transwoman was asked to leave the women's changing.

At the time they said they were inclusive etc and they would talk to the gym involved.

So I think they wanted to avoid that happening again...

But now women have noticed...

It always comes down to

Small % of the population wanting to use this by gender (protected characteristic)

Vs

50% of the population wanting to do this by sex (protected characteristic)

Let's see what happens

irresistibleoverwhelm · 24/07/2021 23:05

[quote NiceGerbil]This was the original it was one person.

That argument didn't propagate as it's based on a whole lot of strange assumptions.

www.huffpost.com/entry/this-trans-woman-asks-you-really-want-me-in-the-same-bathroom-as-your-husband_n_563b997fe4b0411d3070003a[/quote]
😂😂😂

It’s quite a challenge to run the “transwomen are at risk from male violence in the changing rooms/just want to pee in peace” line at the same time as the “transwomen will seduce and predate on your poor unsuspecting menfolk in the men’s bogs” line, to be fair 😂😂😂

NiceGerbil · 24/07/2021 23:32

The other thing is if he was in the gents and anyone dressed like that came in and behaved like that

It's him who would be terrified!

Dollpiglet · 24/07/2021 23:43

So if I want to use a PureGym (I don't) I'd need to identify as the manager so I can use their office?

NiceGerbil · 24/07/2021 23:52

I think so.

Thing is you may need to handle complaints about changing rooms from left right and centre and I personally wouldn't fancy that. It's the people in the branches who have to try and apply these policies.

NiceGerbil · 24/07/2021 23:55

Oh by the way

I looked at Duncan bannatyne's Twitter.

Anyone care to guess how much shit he is getting for having sex specific changing?

mustlovegin · 24/07/2021 23:57

Anyone care to guess how much shit he is getting for having sex specific changing?

Oh dear... Sad

NiceGerbil · 25/07/2021 00:55

Answer is none of course.

Congressdingo · 25/07/2021 08:42

@Dollpiglet

So if I want to use a PureGym (I don't) I'd need to identify as the manager so I can use their office?
Absolutely, do this and report back yeah. I'd love to see their faces. I don't use a gym , if I did then I'd be up for it. I think man Friday has to be reformed to do stuff just like this.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/07/2021 10:33

Would you recommend them, E-cleg?

I'm going to say yes, because it gives a window into how some of these people's minds work.

Redapplewreath · 25/07/2021 11:25

@NiceGerbil

Answer is none of course.
He'll be approached nicely, with a lot of emotive courtesy and quiet cups of tea instead of threats of sexual violence.

No one will have checked his gender, obvs. It's like this behaviour is wholly rooted in sex based thinking regardless of all the 'its complicated' verbiage.

Ekofisk · 25/07/2021 13:16

@NiceGerbil

Oh by the way

I looked at Duncan bannatyne's Twitter.

Anyone care to guess how much shit he is getting for having sex specific changing?

Quite a lot currently, especially because Bannatyne’s SM team is tweeting on his account by the looks and they’ve lost patience with repeating themselves on their policy.

Lots of outrage that Bannatynes is using the single sex exception, calling it illegal, despite the EA 2010 using the example of single sex changing rooms in a department store as an appropriate use of the exception Confused

GreyhoundG1rl · 25/07/2021 13:30

@NiceGerbil

Oh by the way

I looked at Duncan bannatyne's Twitter.

Anyone care to guess how much shit he is getting for having sex specific changing?

I'll bet the amount of actual real live women joiners has gone through the roof, though. Twitter isn't the real world, and I imagine Duncan Bannatyne has enough dosh to not give a shit what the Twitter mob think of him. More power to his elbow.
KittenKong · 25/07/2021 13:48

He doesn’t seem like the type or person who would back down, and seems to have the measure of the argument (unlike a well known author) - why should he?

allmywhat · 25/07/2021 13:54

I'm interested by all the TRAs threatening to sue Bannatyne's.

The Equality Act seems fairly unambiguous here so they're probably just talking out of their arses but maybe they'll try it? A lawsuit would be useful publicity even if it somehow went wrong. (say if you got a judge who'd been extensively 'trained' by Stonewall or wanted women's protections dismantled for other reasons.)

I think there would be considerable pressure on the government to remedy the law if a case like that went wrong for women. And if it went right, then it would be very useful to have the clarification that single-sex changing rooms are legal, insane though it is that such a clarification is needed.

Redapplewreath · 25/07/2021 13:59

@allmywhat

I'm interested by all the TRAs threatening to sue Bannatyne's.

The Equality Act seems fairly unambiguous here so they're probably just talking out of their arses but maybe they'll try it? A lawsuit would be useful publicity even if it somehow went wrong. (say if you got a judge who'd been extensively 'trained' by Stonewall or wanted women's protections dismantled for other reasons.)

I think there would be considerable pressure on the government to remedy the law if a case like that went wrong for women. And if it went right, then it would be very useful to have the clarification that single-sex changing rooms are legal, insane though it is that such a clarification is needed.

Doesn't half prove too doesn't it, the sole aim is that women shall have not one single space or refuge left.