For any Puregym regulars....

[EmpressWitchDoesntBurn]

They've stated on Twitter that their communal changing rooms are NOT single-sex and that any woman who wants to be sure of not changing with men should use the gender-neutral toilets. So that's nice.

Thread here: twitter.com/Albawitch_xx/status/1418506009815945216?s=20

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

Has any trans woman ever, anywhere in Britain, been a hassle to any woman born female in a women's changing room or toilet?

yep, let's rephrase that

Has any man ever, anywhere in Britain, been a hassle to any woman born female in a women's changing room or toilet?

and the answer of course is a resounding yes

I am uninterested in a person's gender identity. I am however all to aware that a significant subset of men gain sexual gratification by committing voyeurism against women and by exposing themselves to women

I'd like to support this with a news story from years ago - before the internet & so I've been unable to find a reference to it. There's a set of public loos on a park/playing field in Salisbury, Wiltshire (UK). They're right on the edge of the field, next to the road & so on my way home after long drive & with further still to go, I'd stop & use the Ladies there rather than drive into town, park & walk to find a loo.

That's until news broke that a man had hidden in the toilets waiting for any woman to come in & when one did, he killed her. You can bet I never used those loos again.

Of course we're at risk. Men's rights supporters (especially American ones, judging from twitter) say that women 'like to play the victim' & that women are equally violent, but you only have to look at crime statistics to see who does the attacking & the killing. Hint: it ain't us.

And before anyone says, See! Men can attack you anywhere!...

Some people commit bank robberies, but banks don't suddenly decide to leave all their cash outside on the pavement to make it easier for them, on the grounds that they'll only come in with guns & steal it anyway.

or:

Some people break into houses, but I bet we all lock our doors.

--

I apologise to anyone who preferred that that diatribe stayed up. I only reported that one. Perhaps you're right & it's best to let people see the aggression & illogic (putting it very politely).

Has any trans woman ever, anywhere in Britain, been a hassle to any woman born female

Oh dear this comment comes across as very transphobic. After all TWAW dontcha know. Tsk tsk.

I’ll be taking my money here from now on.

"Can I ask a serious question (without offending anyone)? Why don't these companies/institutions have a third or even fourth space so that everyone feels at ease and included without erasing women's rights or putting us at risk?"

This illustration sums it up well...

Article by Julie Bindel which may be relevant here.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9819631/I-sexually-assaulted-womens-prison-fellow-inmate-male-genitalia.html#comments

@BigGreenOlives

Duncan Bannantyne tweeted yesterday that his gyms changing rooms will remain single sex.

Someone who understands the exceptions under the equality act and how to correctly apply them.

There's no legal basis whatever, as far as I can make out, for any sort of facilities or services divided on the basis of 'gender'. Whereas there clearly is for single sex provision, where it's needed.

So where can women go and expect a single sex (male free) place? I used to work out at pure gym and women shower and get changed regularly so the male attendants would make sure to let women know before going in to clean etc. I was going in once and the male attendant said he would wait outside while I dropped my bag off and then he went in.

They themselves know women need a single sex, safe changing and shower room. Why should women now be continually told we don’t have the right to safe spaces free of men?

If I go into the locker room expecting it to be for women, then a man just walking in is going to not only shock me, it is going to make me uncomfortable.

Why is it so terrible that women be able to have single sex spaces?

So basically women’s locker rooms no longer exist. They are all unisex now.

Time for a boycott.

Can we address the epic gaslighting that happens whenever women say we need single sex spaces?

We edit our lives so much as it is, but to them be told to not ever expect any safe public spaces because of the feelings and need for validation for men is not only insulting, it is gargantuan level gaslighting that is so epic that I don’t even have the words for it.

So anytime I go into a ladies toilet, there might be a man in there. But yes.. we should assume that pervert men would not dare intrude on our spaces. Is that what we are supposed to believe here? We are supposed to take the word and believe that perverted, predatory men would have some sense of honour. Yes sure…

A bizarre take on the discussion, from today's twitter. The replies are sensible & the author is unswayed.

twitter.com/ApplecoreKatie/status/1418711341909651461

Have you watched any of that individual's YouTube channel?

[quote ifIwerenotanandroid]A bizarre take on the discussion, from today's twitter. The replies are sensible & the author is unswayed.

twitter.com/ApplecoreKatie/status/1418711341909651461[/quote]
That person is a transwoman. Who wants female validation. And they clearly don't like the idea of other men catching a glance of their penis when it's far more preferable for women to be forced to cop an eyeful.

They can't see the problem because they are part of the problem.

@ifIwerenotanandroid are we to believe Katie cares about what women want? [Hollow laugh]

Katie, women care about who is in our spaces. No men, full stop. Men are perfectly able to cope with all kinds of males in their spaces.

Oh Katie, bless your deluded little heart 😂😂😂

I was simply taken by the oddness (to me & many others) of the viewpoint & assumptions. It's the first time I'd heard that POV. I felt it deserved a wider audience.

No, I haven't seen the vid's. Would you recommend them, E-cleg? (I never know how to pornounce your name.)

Sorry, PRONounce

Nothing on my mind, honestly, absolutely nothing - except maybe the Tesco order I just sent off.

ifIwere, you'll notice it more now you have. Lots of TW rock up here and elsewhere and genuinely seem to think, because they have gaggle of fawning acolytes telling them how utterly gorgeous they are on their facebook profile pic, that they are Beyonce's better looking cousin. They also seem to think that the silence and smiles and nods they occasionally garner in a female toilet or changing room are because they pass completely and are being welcomed into the bosom of the womanly coven, instead of every woman assessing them and performing the placate-possible-danger routine I'm sure most of us are familiar with.

Or saying ‘oh your shoes are nice, I like your bag’ is more of a nervous chit chat thing. Women tend not to chat about makeup, periods and kittens in the loos (in my experience).

[quote ifIwerenotanandroid]A bizarre take on the discussion, from today's twitter. The replies are sensible & the author is unswayed.

twitter.com/ApplecoreKatie/status/1418711341909651461[/quote]
Not looked at any YouTube so from s skim of those tweets I'd guess their response is motivated by feeling uncomfortable and worried that other men will say or do something.

Which is s fear an awful lot of males have for any number of reasons.

From the pov of an individual they're worried and they will feel safe in the ladies so why are women being so mean? And that's the end of it. It's a totally self centred view.

I can't see why the PureGym offer of the accessible bathroom wouldn't be the best option. Not good for people with disabilities. But there's a lot more women in the world than trans males whose presentation marks them out as different.

Although GNC men would use the men's so....???

Last two points are the big conundrum (not).

From the pov of an individual they're worried and they will feel safe in the ladies so why are women being so mean?

But in a Puregym men and boys can get changed wherever they want. The only question they should ask themselves is ‘am I comfortable?’.

I think the best option is third unisex spaces for anyone who needs or doesn’t care about using them.

YY I know.

The point I'm trying to make (not very well!)

Is that while women are thinking of multiple groups-
Women girls
Certain religious beliefs
Men and boys (in theory women can use their spaces and loads would really hate that esp teen boys find it mortifying)
Other groups of men at risk from male violence of which there are plenty
Etc

And also thinking of not this individual or that individual but the risk from males as a group, the worryingly large minority of whom enjoy upsetting / scaring and onto sex offences etc. And that self ID allows ANY male in no questions asked.

Often as in this example the person is literally only thinking of themselves. I don't feel safe. I will feel safe in there. I'm only one person. Why so horrible? Do they want me to be hurt (possibly maybe)? Saying I'm a risk is an assumption and an insult...

And when we argue our points about groups etc. It won't work. Because they are only thinking of themselves. Literally.

I mean that's some.

Others who argue for it

Like winding women up, upsetting them.

Like having the opportunity to spell out that we are prey, that they don't care.

Getting women to post personal accounts of dodgy creepy men, assault etc. And then saying so what.

Enjoying seeing women put in their place, telling us to shut up, do as you're told, you don't matter, males do.

And of course the ones who for obvious reasons will relish the opportunities afforded by being able to wander into places where girls and women want to be private, are in a state of undress, and of course all the other numerous things where we are simply more comfy with females eg talking about menopause or.. well loads of stuff.

It doesn't matter what we say.

Logic will not win this argument IMO.

@merrymouse

From the pov of an individual they're worried and they will feel safe in the ladies so why are women being so mean?

But in a Puregym men and boys can get changed wherever they want. The only question they should ask themselves is ‘am I comfortable?’.

I think the best option is third unisex spaces for anyone who needs or doesn’t care about using them.

And.. where do they go? How will they be paid for?

Disability rights campaigners have been working and working for decades to get the things they have so far and there's still a long way to go.

Space in many things is just not there or is insanely valuable.

I mean yes in plenty of things it could be done but not all...

And anyway. If that was an acceptable solution then all the orgs like stonewall would be campaigning for them. These orgs have (although losing a bit( a lot of support- corporate etc. They are well funded high profile and etc.

If they had been campaiging for this since it all started getting into the public eye- 5 years say. They could have had the law changed to provide additional facilities where possible etc and I'm sure got many created.

But they have instead always focussed on existing facilities but some people can choose. Always. And run massive initiative to get this rolled out. Even though it's against the law in some places eg schools.

So.

No third spaces are often very tricky to put in

AND importantly

Not wanted anyway.

The tweet linked says;

Duncan Bannatyne went on record as saying anyone with a penis should use the men's facilities. If Bannatyne Gyms require trans women who haven't had genital surgery to get undressed with males and shower naked with men how do those men's wives and girlfriends feel about that?
This is not a tweet from some worried about being naked around men. The tweeter is asking women if they want their husbands or boyfriends to shower next to a pre-op TW. The suggestion is not that the TW would be in danger, the question is how would the wives and girlfriends feel. That's not someone who feels in danger, that's a suggestion that the TW is some sort of inappropriate distraction or maybe even a temptation.

No time to read every message on the thread, so it this has already been said apologies — but I understand that Bannatyne gyms retain single sex facilities. So if people want to swap...

Ah. Sorry. Ignore.

I would say that my pure gym has both a accessible toilet and also separate accessible shower facilities with changing area. As a third space away from male or female changing.

I don't know if that's the case for all. But mine has.