For any Puregym regulars....

[EmpressWitchDoesntBurn]

They've stated on Twitter that their communal changing rooms are NOT single-sex and that any woman who wants to be sure of not changing with men should use the gender-neutral toilets. So that's nice.

Thread here: twitter.com/Albawitch_xx/status/1418506009815945216?s=20

Chilling list if nasty things predatory men like doing to the "squealing weaklings" who are in fact just women and girls trying to live their lives unmolested.

Bet your computer browsing history would make interesting reading for the authorities.

line of smiley white blokes

This has nothing to do with race

I would never join a gym which had this policy though

@UltimateCheekbones

Too much snowflakery for me, I'm afraid. I have a few trans-women friends who've had ten times more misery in their lives than any of you will probably ever have to face. They're no threat to anyone. They just want to get changed in changing rooms and use toilets without real, day-to-day fear. That's it. Enjoy your privilege, ladies. ;)

Oh! You aren’t thinking again, as you said? When provided with evidence of something you said didn’t exist? I thought you said you’d think again…?

What a surprise.

Do your friends feel that their desires to use the changing room they want, should mean fully intact adult men can get to be naked in changing rooms around my small daughter? Is it a case of them having been miserable, so women and small girls get to be miserable too? That’s nice. Very compassionate and - if I dare say so - womanly.

They just want to get changed in changing rooms and use toilets without real, day-to-day fear.

And so that they can have this, little girls get to feel that fear instead. That’s inclusive for you.

Can I ask a serious question (without offending anyone)? Why don't these companies/institutions have a third or even fourth space so that everyone feels at ease and included without erasing women's rights or putting us at risk?

@mustlovegin

Can I ask a serious question (without offending anyone)? Why don't these companies/institutions have a third or even fourth space so that everyone feels at ease and included without erasing women's rights or putting us at risk?

Typically when this is offered it gets refused, because trans women specifically want to use the women’s changing rooms. It’s part of the validation thing - a third space doesn’t give that.

Offering the disabled loo to trans women who want a safe space to change (instead of women and girls who don’t want to change in front of male bodied people) would seem to be the obvious solution, but companies are scared of offering that because it doesn’t treat trans women as if they were biological women.

In the equality act gender reassignment is a protected characteristic, but it comes into conflict with sex as a protected characteristic (which allows for single sex exemptions). Many companies have also been (wrongly) advised (eg by Stonewall) that they mustn’t make use of single sex exemptions, even when they are clearly warranted in the case of changing facilities. So companies can often think they can’t keep facilities single sex when they can.

@UltimateCheekbones

Too much snowflakery for me, I'm afraid. I have a few trans-women friends who've had ten times more misery in their lives than any of you will probably ever have to face. They're no threat to anyone. They just want to get changed in changing rooms and use toilets without real, day-to-day fear. That's it. Enjoy your privilege, ladies. ;)

I’m just wondering again what your trans women friends’ fear is about? Are you in the U.K., because there is actually very little violence towards trans people in the U.K.?

Do your friends fear violence from men?

If so, why are their fears of male violence valid fears; but women’s fear of male violence is “snowflakery”?

Women and girls have a clearly documented far greater risk of being assaulted than trans women do. But trans women’s fear of male violence - I’m presuming your friends are adults - why is that fear justified, whereas a little girl’s fear of naked adult men is snowflakery?

Come back, Cheekbones! I’d just like to hear you confirm that your friends’ fear is more important than my daughter’s fear. Then we an all know exactly where we are.

Not caught up but wanted to highlight this.

'But I think we need to try to understand the enemy here. Think of it from their point of view. There are many, many situations where it's easier to do that than in women's changing rooms. They only need to follow a woman down a street. Or catch her in a hallway, in an office, or in any number of places, where they could get away with it a million times more easily.'

Bloody hell.

Women and girls are fed the idea that we are essentially prey from all directions from when we are young.

We learn to be aware, risk assess. We are urged to 'look after ourselves' in so many ways it's inevitable that should something happen you WILL have done something wrong.

Watch your drink
Travel with friends
Don't walk there. Don't walk alone. Don't walk at night.
Don't get drunk
Cross the road
Tell a friend where you're going on a date
Blah blah blah blah blah.

And now you tell us to

Imagine through the eyes of a man with bad intent
See what he sees
Think where he can get you. Your daughter. Open your eyes! Have a think. Focus.
Think hard and clearly on ALL the places you go. Look at yourself through the eyes of an assailant. See how small and vulnerable you are. He can get you. Easily. So easily.

Yes, give that some serious thought.

Just as an exercise. So that you will see that I am right. Because males being able to go xyz where you are vulnerable is the least of your worries. See? There you go. Stop being so silly.

....

I have heard the men will rape you anyway argument before which is pretty crass obv but this is some next level stuff.

I liked this poster when I saw it every day on my commute.

Just in case I had forgotten that I was prey. Can't have that.

That post shows zero awareness of the lives of women and girls.

I used to take risks. I broke the rules. I was not 'weak'. I knew full well if anything happened it would be seen as my fault for not 'protecting myself'.

I always find it a strange tactic to say

That we should think specifically of how vulnerable we are by (yikes) seeing ourselves through the eyes of a male sex offender

And that will show us that we should switch that hyper alert risk assessment OFF when it comes to communal changing for women where any male can wander in as long as he ticked the right box when he applied.

I am taking about male men here not anything to do with trans identities.

And what is this 'dressing up as a woman' no idea what that's got to do with anything.

It would appear ultimatecheekygit doesn't have a fecking clue about the reality of women's lives..and certainty doesn't care.

Space
Cost
Remodeling may well mean shut down lost revenue

And of course

Additional spaces which are all gender etc are seen as othering trans people. TWAW so the women's is the correct place.

Again I think posts like that are good to leave as they're interesting for lurkers.

That was a more extreme example of a poster who seemed unnervingly keen to remind us how many predators are around with a quite frankly creepy insistence we should all imagine ourselves as like...

You know in TV and films where there's a lone woman walking along and there's oh shit danger music and the camera perspective makes it so that you are watching her.

Awesome...

You are at massive risk all the time look through the predators eyes and see what easy prey you are.

But also despite living this life as prey you are weak... (Linked to the prey thing? We are weak and vulnerable and just asking to be picked off)...

And that's a GREAT REASON to open up everything that was for women (female people) to males if they say a couple of magic words... Because somehow no predator would ever go to the effort of... Walking into a room where women are undressed.

Totes logical.

Y y @NiceGerbil imagine reminding women that men would constantly like to attack them, and then saying “but my trans friends live in fear - you can’t possibly know what that’s like!”

I mean, just imagine being that dense.

The not infrequent (here and other sm) comments on this topic...

Casually saying oh if men want to attack you there's nothing to stop them

(Callous and so crass)

And saying what's the problem it's only a penis...
So women start explaining about past experiences of assault

In general a lot of this conversation seems to end up with women saying at length

Their past experiences
The things men do to intimidate us that are not illegal
Why women and girls in general are alert for dodgy men
Etc etc

I mean (and this is s general comment). As suggested if I look through the eyes of s pervy man. Or a man who enjoys upsetting women. Or a man who just doesn't like women much.

This would all be awesome fun.

I think that it needs to be turned around.

Prove this has never happened ever.
Let's hear your argument as to why pervy men definitely won't abuse this.
Why do you think a pervy man would think it too much effort to simply walk into women's facilities? Doesn't sound like much effort to me.

Etc etc

I don't think it's dense.

I think a lot of this is about enjoying winding women up. Telling them up is down and saying go on prove it isn't. And watching us post essentially fairly pleading posts saying please come on you surely must get this just a bit?

What larks.

I think we all need to bear that in mind.

Despite the vocal types on SM etc.

Saying xyz and we try to get them to understand just a little with long personal posts.

The amount of people who GENUINELY believe there is zero risk with males being able to go anywhere we are getting naked etc. And little girls as well.

It's fun, saying penis at women a lot, while we explain over and over why this is a massive risk. Masses of fun.

All evidence is ignored. Not interested. Won’t believe it anyway.

No evidence is produced to support own claims.

Posters give lovely attention.

There’s a whole thread on here to educate yourself with. There’s police reports, newspaper reports with full details.

Versus, well, not even anecdotal evidence.

Fantasy.

Any excuse to be able to have a go at women. It’s all there.

Leave the posts to stand. It all shows the kind of person who loves to hide behind an ideology when they just hate women.

“If men want to attack women they will”.

There’s not a poster on here doesn’t know that.

But if women attack trans women (with no evidence produced) that’s awful. Much worse than anyone attacking a child, say.)

And if men attack trans women (again, without citing any evidence in the post as looking for any examples takes effort) then everyone must make changes to accommodate.

But women just have to put up with it.

That’s the mindset here.

Women have to accept they will be attacked. Transwomen must be protected at all cost.

You don’t believe TWAW any more than anyone else here.

I don't think it is the mindset.

I think it's usually more simple than that.

It's not about discussion, debate.

It's about winding women up. Enjoying saying heh you'll get attacked anyway. So what.

It's about male dominance. Nothing more.

Why would they want to risk going into a women's changing room to do that?

WHAT RISK. What fucking risk? If sexual predator wants to commit voyeurism or exhibitionism then claiming to be trans and walking openly into the women’s changing rooms is the safest possible way to do it. It’s not even illegal if you do it like that.

It's ok.

Yes it's obvious. No argument will work because the point is not to change our minds but to wind us up.

The poster on this thread couldn't be clearer.