For any Puregym regulars....

[EmpressWitchDoesntBurn]

They've stated on Twitter that their communal changing rooms are NOT single-sex and that any woman who wants to be sure of not changing with men should use the gender-neutral toilets. So that's nice.

Thread here: twitter.com/Albawitch_xx/status/1418506009815945216?s=20

Has any trans woman ever, anywhere in Britain, been a hassle to any woman born female in a women's changing room or toilet?

I wish I had have archived it. There was a video on YouTube that I saw two years ago where a male who was starting their transition harassed three school girls out of the public toilets somewhere in London. The male was affronted that these young girls asked if they were in the right toilet. The male was getting dressed in the toilets after work into their ‘woman’ clothes. They videoed the interaction including that male running up the street chasing them, yelling at them about their transphobia.

And then posted it on YouTube for the world to see how horrible those school girls were.

@UltimateCheekbones

Point of info before I go on: Has any trans woman ever, anywhere in Britain, been a hassle to any woman born female in a women's changing room or toilet?

**Yes. See examples others have posted and / or Google.

Seriously, has that ever happened? Could anyone name a single case?

**Seriously yes. As per PPs and you can try Google.

So, you can provide examples, then ...? Please go ahead. I'm agog! :)

Here's one. If you can casually dismiss Amy, and the other women still at risk, as piffling snowflakes, well... that says something about you.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9819631/I-sexually-assaulted-womens-prison-fellow-inmate-male-genitalia.html

It's about winding women up. Enjoying saying heh you'll get attacked anyway. So what.

It's about male dominance. Nothing more.

Yes.

wish I had have archived it. There was a video on YouTube that I saw two years ago where a male who was starting their transition harassed three school girls out of the public toilets somewhere in London. The male was affronted that these young girls asked if they were in the right toilet. The male was getting dressed in the toilets after work into their ‘woman’ clothes. They videoed the interaction including that male running up the street chasing them, yelling at them about their transphobia.

Isn't that also what Eddie Izzard describes doing, without the video?

Yes it's obvious. No argument will work because the point is not to change our minds but to wind us up.

The poster on this thread couldn't be clearer.

And so you can see how little boundaries are respected. It's both to wind us up and upset us by showing us that we are powerless, just like men who impose their presence on women do when they are vulnerable in a female only space.

Reminder- bannatyne gyms don’t do this!

@Helleofabore

Has any trans woman ever, anywhere in Britain, been a hassle to any woman born female in a women's changing room or toilet?

I wish I had have archived it. There was a video on YouTube that I saw two years ago where a male who was starting their transition harassed three school girls out of the public toilets somewhere in London. The male was affronted that these young girls asked if they were in the right toilet. The male was getting dressed in the toilets after work into their ‘woman’ clothes. They videoed the interaction including that male running up the street chasing them, yelling at them about their transphobia.

And then posted it on YouTube for the world to see how horrible those school girls were.

That sounds like they were taking inspiration from an incident documented by a high profile person. In this case there was no intent to hassle or harm women, just an egotistical disregard, entitlement, and misunderstanding of male/female power. memoir quote

Duncan Bannantyne tweeted yesterday that his gyms changing rooms will remain single sex.

ErrolTheDragon

It did sound very similar. But it wasn’t that person, of course. It was a slightly overweight male with dark hair who was not ‘out’ at work so still presented as a stereotypical male.

They felt they were fully righteous in chasing those girls up the street filming them. I dare say it was quickly deleted as someone would have pointed out that it was not something that activists would want left up on YouTube. Proof of all the things women discuss.

And so you can see how little boundaries are respected. It's both to wind us up and upset us by showing us that we are powerless, just like men who impose their presence on women do when they are vulnerable in a female only space.

Exactly Eresh.

@mustlovegin

Can I ask a serious question (without offending anyone)? Why don't these companies/institutions have a third or even fourth space so that everyone feels at ease and included without erasing women's rights or putting us at risk?

Third spaces aren't "validating" enough. Or something.

Poster one Well, whatever. If there are cases of this happening - or if there's even just one case of it happening - I'll think again

Poster 2 provides links

Poster 3 leaves thread

I mean this would be really funny is it wasnt so pathetic and if it didn’t happen EVERY SINGLE TIME

That’s no use errol you see that’s a prison and this poster wants examples in a changing room. Probably on a full moon, at 3.17am in the Orkneys. And if you can’t find an example of that it’s clearly snowflakery hoaxery!

(And it also wouldn’t count for reasons)

Returning to this thread this morning, and why have so many posters been deleted when they said nothing wrong or offensive?

People forget this isn't just about safety.

My DDs friend is probably one of the least "at risk" women out there. She's an elite level competitor in martial arts fighting and runs self defence programmes.

She's also of a religion that prevents her getting changed around males and her family, whilst not totally traditional, may well be upset enough to disown her if she did. Is she just supposed to stop going anywhere?

@BigGreenOlives

So actually women would be safer using the men’s changing rooms as the decent men would be in there.

Wow.

This blows my mind.

@UltimateCheekbones

This would be a regular occurrence, would it? I mean, your understanding of gender dynamics would suggest that it is. So could you cite me examples of where it's happened, then? Or indeed any example, at all?

Yes, it is indeed a miserable fact that men can impose themselves on women and threaten them, and lots will like doing that. But I think we need to try to understand the enemy here. Think of it from their point of view. There are many, many situations where it's easier to do that than in women's changing rooms. They only need to follow a woman down a street. Or catch her in a hallway, in an office, or in any number of places, where they could get away with it a million times more easily. Why would they want to risk going into a women's changing room to do that? With other women possibly there, with cameras on them going in and out? Some say: 'Oh yes, but supposed 'trans women' could do that!' But why go to the trouble of disguising themselves as women in order to do that, when they can do it so much more easily elsewhere? It makes no sense whatsoever.

Well, whatever. If there are cases of this happening - or if there's even just one case of it happening - I'll think again. But to me, right now, this is one of the silliest things to get scared about I've ever come across.

Can I just remind everyone that when Larry Nassar sexually abused all of those female gymnasts, over many years, a lot of the time he carried out his crimes WHEN HIS VICTIMS PARENTS WERE SAT IN THE SAME ROOM!

What the actual fuck are you talking about 'why would they take that risk'? Do you know absolutely nothing about the way that men carry out sexual crime?

Give me fucking strength.

Has any trans woman ever, anywhere in Britain, been a hassle to any woman born female in a women's changing room or toilet?

‘Trans’ is neither here nor there if the criteria is just that people should use any changing room.

Exactly, this isn't about transwomen. If anyone can use whichever changing room they 'feel most comfortable in' then anyone can be in women's spaces. This is what we have been saying all along about self id and this Puregym thing is what it looks like in real life.

And anyone who thinks that this kind of loophole won't be exploited by certain men is either naive or thick, or both.

@UltimateCheekbones

Too much snowflakery for me, I'm afraid. I have a few trans-women friends who've had ten times more misery in their lives than any of you will probably ever have to face. They're no threat to anyone. They just want to get changed in changing rooms and use toilets without real, day-to-day fear. That's it. Enjoy your privilege, ladies. ;)

Difficult to understand how they are helped by the policy of ‘use any changing room’.

If the friends cannot see why single sex areas can and will be abused, and why women are scared, then they really just don’t ‘get it’ do they?

They’d be absolutely cool in a changing room with a physically male person strutting in - can they tell who is ‘trans’ and who is just a man saying they are to gain access to female only areas?

Has any trans woman ever, anywhere in Britain, been a hassle to any woman born female in a women's changing room or toilet?

yep, let's rephrase that

Has any man ever, anywhere in Britain, been a hassle to any woman born female in a women's changing room or toilet?

and the answer of course is a resounding yes

I am uninterested in a person's gender identity. I am however all to aware that a significant subset of men gain sexual gratification by committing voyeurism against women and by exposing themselves to women

Well the case in Fife for starters (need to think about the details) where a child was dragged into a ladies loo cubicle, threatened and abused.

Anyone who follows Fionne on twitter will see their photos of them in full make up and a dress in the men’s loos. Fionne has never seemed to have an issue (they were called ‘very pretty’ once).

It is relentless.