For any Puregym regulars....

[EmpressWitchDoesntBurn]

They've stated on Twitter that their communal changing rooms are NOT single-sex and that any woman who wants to be sure of not changing with men should use the gender-neutral toilets. So that's nice.

Thread here: twitter.com/Albawitch_xx/status/1418506009815945216?s=20

It's important to leave these up.

And I want to respond...

@UltimateCheekbones here's the one example you asked for of a trans woman sexually assaulting someone in a women's toilet, they chose to sexually assault a 10 yr old girl

metro.co.uk/2019/03/16/transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-morrisons-toilet-8914577/

@UltimateCheekbones

Has any trans woman ever, anywhere in Britain, been a hassle to any woman born female in a women's changing room or toilet?

Yes. Katie Dolatowski was arrested for sexually assaulting a 10 year old girl.
www.thesun.co.uk/news/8647171/transgender-woman-sexually-assaulted-girl-morrisons/

Mixed sex changing rooms have an 800% increase in voyeurism and sexual assaults compared to women only.

''The vast majority of reported sexual assaults at public swimming pools in the UK take place in unisex changing rooms, new statistics reveal.

The data, obtained through a Freedom of Information request by the Sunday Times, suggests that unisex changing rooms are more dangerous for women and girls than single-sex facilities.

Just under 90 per cent of complaints regarding changing room sexual assaults, voyeurism and harassment are about incidents in unisex facilities.''
www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

@UltimateCheekbones
Women have been raped in women only psychiatric wards by men who identify as women.
Women have been sexually assaulted in women's prisons by men who identify as women.

The fact that you don't know this is concerning. You think you understand what you are supporting, but you aren't aware of basic facts.

Sorry, NiceGerbil, just seen your request.

This is possibly the most ludicrous, piffling concern that I've ever seen here.

mmm hmm.

@UltimateCheekbones Do you really think a man who wants to hassle a woman will want to go into a women's changing room to do that? Why?

Yes, I do think that lots of predatory men and misogynists would love that. They don't have to do a positive act to make the environment threatening for women. Their mere, unchallenged, presence is sufficient. Many predatory men would love to see the shock and discomfort their presence causes to women users. It is all about power and control.

They don't have to do a positive act to make the environment threatening for women. Their mere, unchallenged, presence is sufficient. Many predatory men would love to see the shock and discomfort their presence causes to women users. It is all about power and control.

Exactly this.

It's sexually thrilling for some men simply to impose their presence on unwilling women, who signal that they are humiliated, uncomfortable or scared. People rarely acknowledge it, or don't see it. Men especially, as they aren't used to it, unless they go around doing it themselves, which of course a lot of men do.

Point of info before I go on: Has any trans woman ever, anywhere in Britain, been a hassle to any woman born female in a women's changing room or toilet?

**Yes. See examples others have posted and / or Google.

Seriously, has that ever happened? Could anyone name a single case?

**Seriously yes. As per PPs and you can try Google.

I mean, there are indeed cases of women-born-as female hassling and beating up trans-women ... but I know of any cases of the reverse.

**In the spirit of your post, examples please.
Of course women can be violent and sometimes are. But still. UK news reports from reputable sources please and not anecdotes but cases with police involvement etc. I know that sounds harsh but I doubt you would accept otherwise from women.

**But consider this point: For god's sake, know your enemy. Really, get your heads around that. Do you really think a man who wants to hassle a woman will want to go into a women's changing room to do that?

**Yes absolutely.

Why?

**Why not?

He could do that in a zillion and one situations that are easier for him.

**Why easier? PureGym have confirmed that it's fine. Couldn't be easier.

Most of all he could do it where he'd have no witnesses. Any dark alley, any dark room, anywhere.

**Are you really this naive about the range of behaviours that pervy creepy men enjoy? Compromising the privacy and comfort of women and girls in communal changing. And knowing that as long as you don't touch there is nothing they can do about it. And if they do THEY are the one seen as in the wrong by an unsettlingly large number of people...
I mean that sounds like a highly attractive prospect for a pervy creepy man. They love that stuff.
You don't know that?

This is a nonsense. Grow up. A person born as male, but who presents as female, only goes to a women's changing room because that's what's safest.

**Can gay men, disabled men, GNC men, men who are unusually short, men who look certain ways..
And all the men who certain other men pick on...
Should they come in with the women too?

These people have hard, miserable lives. Stop being such self-centred, squealing weaklings. They aren't the danger to you - you are the danger to them.

**If women and girls who are not comfy with random males/ random naked males in communal changing are a danger...
Then can I respectfully suggest that the male changing might be a better choice. The vast majority of female people do not want this. At all.

'self-centred, squealing weaklings'

This phrasing is especially interesting.

Especially the last word used.

What does physical strength have to do with this? Or does it allude to another way of being weak?

Calling someone you don't like weak is something I associate with men tbh. Although of course I'm sure women say it sometimes.

What sort of strength is needed in women and girls to not feel a range of negative feelings about male people in communal facilities where people take all their clothes off, and is labelled in a way that means they would expect to only be with other women and girls?

Weak...

In the mind?
In their inability to 'get over' massively entrenched social norms?
Too weak to ignore and forget every single thing they know about creep pervy men?

...
??????

Ha no worries I just prefer to respond.

Also deletions get shared as look I was silenced and of course no one knows what was said.

Better to leave them up in all their glory. More persuasive than 100 posts from us tbh.

This would be a regular occurrence, would it? I mean, your understanding of gender dynamics would suggest that it is. So could you cite me examples of where it's happened, then? Or indeed any example, at all?

Yes, it is indeed a miserable fact that men can impose themselves on women and threaten them, and lots will like doing that. But I think we need to try to understand the enemy here. Think of it from their point of view. There are many, many situations where it's easier to do that than in women's changing rooms. They only need to follow a woman down a street. Or catch her in a hallway, in an office, or in any number of places, where they could get away with it a million times more easily. Why would they want to risk going into a women's changing room to do that? With other women possibly there, with cameras on them going in and out? Some say: 'Oh yes, but supposed 'trans women' could do that!' But why go to the trouble of disguising themselves as women in order to do that, when they can do it so much more easily elsewhere? It makes no sense whatsoever.

Well, whatever. If there are cases of this happening - or if there's even just one case of it happening - I'll think again. But to me, right now, this is one of the silliest things to get scared about I've ever come across.

Point of info before I go on: Has any trans woman ever, anywhere in Britain, been a hassle to any woman born female in a women's changing room or toilet? Seriously, has that ever happened? Could anyone name a single case?

As other posters have already said, yes there are, and quite a few in fact. I hope you’re ready for your serving of arse-on-plate; but something tells me you might not be coming back for it….

Y'know, I always find it slightly alarming when someone does a bingo card post and also includes a nice, juicy list of ways in which women could get hurt.
Not sure if it's meant to convince us that the poster really cares about women, but it has the opposite effect on me...

Couldn't resist the name change temptation.

But to me, right now, this is one of the silliest things to get scared about I've ever come across.

I'm wondering why anyone cares what you think is silly?

Point of info before I go on: Has any trans woman ever, anywhere in Britain, been a hassle to any woman born female in a women's changing room or toilet?

**Yes. See examples others have posted and / or Google.

Seriously, has that ever happened? Could anyone name a single case?

**Seriously yes. As per PPs and you can try Google.

So, you can provide examples, then ...? Please go ahead. I'm agog! :)

@UltimateCheekbones at PureGym you don't have to present as a woman, all you have to do is tick the appropriate box on the form and in you go.

If you can't see that this will be abused by men who get aroused by making women uncomfortable (knowing full well that the women will be targeted as transphobes if they object), drunk lads who think it's a big joke (Puregyms aren't constantly staffed) etc then you've lived a very sheltered life.

There are many, many situations where it's easier to do that than in women's changing rooms. They only need to follow a woman down a street. Or catch her in a hallway, in an office, or in any number of places, where they could get away with it a million times more easily.

I don’t know about you, but I’m rarely naked in the office or walking down the street.

We’re not just talking about assaults here. I don’t particularly want men looking at me naked. My 8 year old daughter has just got to that phase where she is very distressed indeed about anyone - even me on occasion - seeing her naked. Is she supposed to be happy to be undressing in the changing rooms in front of adult men too? So when she gets those safeguarding and PSHE lessons at school about the importance of body boundaries, privacy and respect, is that all out the window the next day because some man feels sad if he can’t be “validated” in the women’s changing rooms?

Every, every time - women matter less than men’s feelings and men’s wants. Nothing must be denied them; no-one is allowed to say no; women’s privacy is less important than men being “validated”. God forbid a man might realise that women don’t actually want him there: not only are we being told we have to give up our privacy, but we’re also getting hectored about how we should enjoy it all too.

You seem really pleased about how easy it is to attack women @ultimatearsehole. Why is that?

Well, whatever. If there are cases of this happening - or if there's even just one case of it happening - I'll think again.

Did you actually click on the links posters provided for you upthread?

@UltimateCheekbones since you said you’d think again if there was even just one case, what do you think about the Katie Dolatowski case? Are you thinking again?

Too much snowflakery for me, I'm afraid. I have a few trans-women friends who've had ten times more misery in their lives than any of you will probably ever have to face. They're no threat to anyone. They just want to get changed in changing rooms and use toilets without real, day-to-day fear. That's it. Enjoy your privilege, ladies. ;)